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Game #15: Toronto Raptors 126 - Atlanta Hawks 115

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  • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    If defense comes first then DeRozan should not be averaging 38 minutes per game the last couple of years. Unless of course Casey has different expectations for different positions. But then the whole benching Ross for Salmons/Anderson makes little to no sense either.

    this is the point, it doesn't have to be what we are grading him on. it only matters what is written on his card every night. they have talked about them repeatedly. jv is being treated the same as everyone. demar is being treated the same as everyone.

    it is all about what is written on that card. for all we know demars' card says "show every player on this team you work harder than them and you can shoot all day", most likely doesn't but if every player has a different card and that is what their individual goals are, as stated by the staff, then all our "look at his numbers" stuff is useless.

    stats don't matter. casey shows everyone that doesn't matter,

    Comment


    • im gonna assume for the upcoming mavs game, JV is gonna have to see some 4th quarter minutes due to tyson chandler.

      Comment


      • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
        this is the point, it doesn't have to be what we are grading him on. it only matters what is written on his card every night. they have talked about them repeatedly. jv is being treated the same as everyone. demar is being treated the same as everyone.

        it is all about what is written on that card. for all we know demars' card says "show every player on this team you work harder than them and you can shoot all day", most likely doesn't but if every player has a different card and that is what their individual goals are, as stated by the staff, then all our "look at his numbers" stuff is useless.

        stats don't matter. casey shows everyone that doesn't matter,
        Which is where the majority of his criticism comes from.

        Exhibit 1: Salmons, John

        When the stats back up what is seen on the court it makes one wonder why one continues with those choices.

        But I guess we're 13-2 so we shouldn't be worried about long term greatness - live in the moment.

        Comment


        • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
          I don't mean this personally or as an insult but.....

          You haven't played at a high level if you think start or middle of game is the same as tight, end of game with clock winding down.
          No insult, and I do realize there is a difference.

          What I'm saying is that he is receiving plenty of play time against high calibre players during those first 3 quarters, so he is developing nicely. He isn't ready to play down the stretch of close games when winning is on the line as evidenced by the missed rotations and slow reaction to game play during those first 3 quarters, but will be as he is being groomed carefully. We get the best of both worlds because he is learning and gaining experience while at the same time the team is winning.

          Dallas game tonight might be one of those games he gets some extra burn in the 4th, as they have a couple of 7 footers which Hayes isn't going to be able to guard.

          Comment


          • Mediumcore wrote: View Post
            No insult, and I do realize there is a difference.

            What I'm saying is that he is receiving plenty of play time against high calibre players during those first 3 quarters, so he is developing nicely. He isn't ready to play down the stretch of close games when winning is on the line as evidenced by the missed rotations and slow reaction to game play during those first 3 quarters, but will be as he is being groomed carefully. We get the best of both worlds because he is learning and gaining experience while at the same time the team is winning.

            Dallas game tonight might be one of those games he gets some extra burn in the 4th, as they have a couple of 7 footers which Hayes isn't going to be able to guard.

            I'm glad not interpreted as insult - furthest thing way intended.


            I feel he is developing nicely in spite of his opportunity and circumstance. He is actually down 4 minutes per game thus far this season. He has only played 4mins in 4th quarters on average and has sat for 5 4th quarters entirely.

            I don't by the "say it often enough and it is true" of missed rotations and slow reactions. He is ever improving in this area and while it might have been true in the past one also has to hold the perimeter responsible for guarding their man - it goes both ways.

            I disagree he is going to get extra 4th Q burn based on the arguments I've read from many posters here. It would appear JV is too slow to guard pick and roll, is unable to stop his own man, and lacks ability to play help D.

            Comment


            • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
              this is the point, it doesn't have to be what we are grading him on. it only matters what is written on his card every night. they have talked about them repeatedly. jv is being treated the same as everyone. demar is being treated the same as everyone.

              it is all about what is written on that card. for all we know demars' card says "show every player on this team you work harder than them and you can shoot all day", most likely doesn't but if every player has a different card and that is what their individual goals are, as stated by the staff, then all our "look at his numbers" stuff is useless.

              stats don't matter. casey shows everyone that doesn't matter,
              That's an interesting perspective. Something I really haven't considered before.

              Could be the whole approach they're taking with the young guys is to focus on developing character and the winning attitude. Could be why we saw salmons get heavier minutes than we would like? Could be why we see Demar getting time when we feel he doesn't deserve it? I wonder if the way they handle themselves and the attitude they bring is what the coaches want them to see, to develop that "winning culture" and not just the skills.

              The card theory could explain a lot, however its impossible to tell until someone gets their hands on them lol

              Comment


              • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                Which is where the majority of his criticism comes from.

                Exhibit 1: Salmons, John

                When the stats back up what is seen on the court it makes one wonder why one continues with those choices.

                But I guess we're 13-2 so we shouldn't be worried about long term greatness - live in the moment.
                Do you actually think that you're more concerned about JVs long term than Casey is? Or is it that you actually believe you know more of what's good for is development, than an entire organization (yes, that includes Masai, who you bet is involved in the plan), that interact with, and work with this young man every day, to say nothing of their extensive experience in developing young NBA talent.

                C'mon man, do you have one second of experience with either the young man or developing talent? It's one thing to critique play calls, O or D execution, player effort, etc., but to be so adamant that you know better than the entire organization, about something you know sfa about? Sorry, but I've heard a lot about "I'm a realist" around these parts. Are you a realist? Let's be real.

                Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                this is the point, it doesn't have to be what we are grading him on. it only matters what is written on his card every night. they have talked about them repeatedly. jv is being treated the same as everyone. demar is being treated the same as everyone.

                it is all about what is written on that card. for all we know demars' card says "show every player on this team you work harder than them and you can shoot all day", most likely doesn't but if every player has a different card and that is what their individual goals are, as stated by the staff, then all our "look at his numbers" stuff is useless.

                stats don't matter. casey shows everyone that doesn't matter,
                Exactly. These players know what each of their deals is. We haven't a clue, thus haven't a leg to stand on to judge what's fair and what's not, unless one takes imagination as solid ground. What we can see very clearly is that to a man, 1-15, these players are buying in, which happens to include JV. He may be young, but it's not kindergarten and it would seem he's man enough to understand what gets him minutes, and what will get him more, and accept it. There doesn't seem to be any evidence whatsoever of an anti-Casey "double standard" sentiment in that locker room, and they know a hell of a lot better than us, who know dick about the reality of all this.

                Did I mention Masai knows a hell of a lot more about what's happening too? At the end of the day, all this "we know how to develop JV better" is also putting themselves above Masai's expertise as well. Realism, right? geeeeez, this is never ending.

                Comment


                • chico wrote: View Post
                  Do you actually think that you're more concerned about JVs long term than Casey is? Or is it that you actually believe you know more of what's good for is development, than an entire organization (yes, that includes Masai, who you bet is involved in the plan), that interact with, and work with this young man every day, to say nothing of their extensive experience in developing young NBA talent.

                  C'mon man, do you have one second of experience with either the young man or developing talent? It's one thing to critique play calls, O or D execution, player effort, etc., but to be so adamant that you know better than the entire organization, about something you know sfa about? Sorry, but I've heard a lot about "I'm a realist" around these parts. Are you a realist? Let's be real.



                  Exactly. These players know what each of their deals is. We haven't a clue, thus haven't a leg to stand on to judge what's fair and what's not, unless one takes imagination as solid ground. What we can see very clearly is that to a man, 1-15, these players are buying in, which happens to include JV. He may be young, but it's not kindergarten and it would seem he's man enough to understand what gets him minutes, and what will get him more, and accept it. There doesn't seem to be any evidence whatsoever of an anti-Casey "double standard" sentiment in that locker room, and they know a hell of a lot better than us, who know dick about the reality of all this.

                  Did I mention Masai knows a hell of a lot more about what's happening too? At the end of the day, all this "we know how to develop JV better" is also putting themselves above Masai's expertise as well. Realism, right? geeeeez, this is never ending.
                  You are right. This is never ending. You need to develop a new playbook.

                  The constant refrain of: 1) these people know more than you, and 2) belittling others with an opposing opinion is extremely tiring. Everyone has seen it and knows it is coming.

                  You have no idea of my experience with regards to playing or coaching. You have no idea of my involvement in player development at any level. I can state I've never worked at the NBA level yet, though.

                  As I said yesterday, you're not stupid. I would even venture to say you're pretty intelligent. When do you bring those attributes in to constructive conversation? You'll see the quotes of mine you have replied to were responses to other posters who did not stoop to such close minded interaction despite a difference of opinion. Many of us have even managed to find common ground despite an overall difference of opinion.

                  Yet again, the forum is about talking with those who share the same interest and passion. Your consistent rant of, "They know better than any of us!" puts up a brick wall to any constructive conversation and assumes that just because these people are working in the NBA they are incapable of mistake or error. Obviously that is poppycock.

                  These forums have actually brought about a great deal of change in my thoughts and opinions over the last 4-5 years. It is a shame you are incapable of conversing in a manner that allows the possibility you might actually influence another persons opinion or shed some enlightenment. You really need to get over twisting people's statements to your own reality and accept what this place is - a place for Raptor fans to shares opinions and information.

                  Comment


                  • So you have no rebuttal of my points, except a couple of twisted interpretations of what I'm saying, amongst a rant of not liking my style. Okay, I'll take that under consideration.

                    Comment


                    • chico wrote: View Post
                      So you have no rebuttal of my points, except a couple of twisted interpretations of what I'm saying, amongst a rant of not liking my style. Okay, I'll take that under consideration.
                      You've clearly missed the point - again.

                      There is no rebuttal to they know more than you.

                      There is no desire to rebuttal with belittling opposing views and posters.


                      It is a forum - an exchange of ideas and information.

                      Comment


                      • The "they know more than us" can be used in any thread discussing any Raptor-related topic. It's as obvious as the sky being blue. Why does it need to be mentioned ever?

                        Comment


                        • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                          The "they know more than us" can be used in any thread discussing any Raptor-related topic. It's as obvious as the sky being blue. Why does it need to be mentioned ever?
                          Exactly.

                          We know their views. We read it every day in articles. We hear it through interviews on radio, broadcasts, and website. We see it in games.

                          What are your opinions and views? If you just want to regurgitate the company line you don't contribute anything new and you apparently lack thoughts of your own. I'm interested in hearing others opinions and views along with the reasoning and rationale behind them.

                          Of course "they know more than us" but it doesn't mean they don't miss things and it doesn't mean they don't make the changes from one game to the next. Anyone notice the lack of pooping on DeRozan lately? It isn't only because it is a well-discussed topic (to put it mildly), it is also because many of the changes many of us were looking for having been implemented. That is just one example.

                          Comment


                          • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                            Exactly.

                            We know their views. We read it every day in articles. We hear it through interviews on radio, broadcasts, and website. We see it in games.

                            What are your opinions and views? If you just want to regurgitate the company line you don't contribute anything new and you apparently lack thoughts of your own. I'm interested in hearing others opinions and views along with the reasoning and rationale behind them.

                            Of course "they know more than us" but it doesn't mean they don't miss things and it doesn't mean they don't make the changes from one game to the next. Anyone notice the lack of pooping on DeRozan lately? It isn't only because it is a well-discussed topic (to put it mildly), it is also because many of the changes many of us were looking for having been implemented. That is just one example.
                            Off-topic, but I love DeMar's improved handle and the effort he's putting into defense and rebounding. I'm actually glad his ppg are down a bit and that he's focusing on making himself a more well rounded player. If he continues to develop this way....honestly I'm not sure I've ever seen somebody improve in so many different ways more or less simply because of hard work, desire, and thousands of hours of practice. So many super talented NBA players have holes in their game that never go away. DD just never stops working.

                            During a recent broadcast Matt/Jack quoted Casey as saying something about if he had a son, he'd want him to be just like DeMar DeRozan. Pretty sure Ujiri's not trading DD for Haywood anytime soon....
                            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

                            Comment


                            • Oh for gawd's sake. I'm not using the "coach knows better" line in reference to play calling, offensive sets, defensive schemes, or even rotation patterns. All things someone may have a bit of experience in, we actually see before our eyes, and open to objective criticism. I'm talking about the adamant shouting about how Casey is abusing JV's development, to which there are a multitude of factors at play in the entire organization, that not a soul here knows one iota about.

                              It's like me critiquing a brain surgeon's decision on technique, and execution, on a major surgery. I'd be talking out of my ass. People want to express their opinion? That's fine, but it's a public forum where if you post something, especially over and over and over, there's no rules about what aspect of this "opinion" isn't open for critiquing. Can't take someone saying you know NOTHING about "X", well boohoo, prove otherwise.

                              Comment


                              • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                                Exactly.

                                We know their views. We read it every day in articles. We hear it through interviews on radio, broadcasts, and website. We see it in games.

                                What are your opinions and views? If you just want to regurgitate the company line you don't contribute anything new and you apparently lack thoughts of your own. I'm interested in hearing others opinions and views along with the reasoning and rationale behind them.

                                Of course "they know more than us" but it doesn't mean they don't miss things and it doesn't mean they don't make the changes from one game to the next. Anyone notice the lack of pooping on DeRozan lately? It isn't only because it is a well-discussed topic (to put it mildly), it is also because many of the changes many of us were looking for having been implemented. That is just one example.
                                Not gonna lie, this is true. Haven't seen you or most of the others (with the exception of OldSkoolCool) talk negatively about DeMar lately. His play seems to be going back to what was working last year, just needs his shots to start falling again.

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