Can we stop blaming DD now for taking away Ross/JV's opportunity?

[MixxAOR]

We talking only about offensive opportunity. They get a lot of opportunity to show their defensive potential and so far they are laying an egg.

[Fully]

I don't think it should sour us on Ross/JV as much as it should make us appreciate Derozan.

I think one of the biggest things the analytics movement has really missed in recent years is that you can't just transfer shots around from player to player on a whim and have the stats extrapolate out perfectly. It's not as simple as saying "Derozan shoots X % and JV and Ross shoot over Y % so if you give half a dozen of DD's shots to them the team will score Z more points per game." You take away a team's number one offensive option and you will see a trickle down effect from options 2 through 12. They all get more attention defensively. They all get less space to operate.

Plus DD has grown into a pretty solid defensive player from a team/schematic view. They're missing him on the defensive side, as crazy as that may seem to some.

[Garbo]

You guys having a pity party for JV make me sick. Stop treating JV like a DOTA character that the rest of the team is responsible for levelling up.

That is unfortunate. My heart goes out to anyone who is made sick by an online sports forum.
As for your points, I agree and I don't all at the same time. As with any argument, there's a level of truth on both sides. There's no excuse for the sad number of rebounds that JV collects (tho, you might be able to make a case that his role on offense is to set screens near the three point line.. You don't grab many rebounds there). At the same time, I've watched countless possessions where JV sprints the floor, posts up a man that's smaller than him after having scored on three of three of his previous attempts only to be looked off for a deep fade-away two. He sprints back on D, switches to cover for the guard who allowed his man to blow by him, and winds up caught out of position on a dish to the big.
He's a paid professional, so he needs to stop pouting, but man, there are games when I'm frustrated for him. I'm a Raptors fan, not a JV fan (cause I hear that thrown around ad nauseum), but the Raptors are a better team if JV is utilized correctly.

Could he be more engaged? Yes. And that's on him.
Could he be utilized more appropriately? Yes. And that's not on him.
He has reason to be frustrated, but he has millions more reasons to stop the pity party

[special1]

JV's usage has gone down since DD went down. Seems insane. Yes, he's struggled (a bit) relative to his usually awesome efficiency, but to say he has gotten more opportunity since DD's injury and has failed to produce is not true - he's gotten less opportunity (more minutes but sees even less of the ball) and failed to produce.

But but didn't people think that JV's usage would increase? Wasn't it somehow Derozan's fault he can't get shots up?? The OP is right...small sample size but it appears Ross and JV are getting exposed indeed. Neither can consistently create for themselves and their fanboys are running out of excuses. Now it's all Casey's fault... Lol

JV has more plays run for him than Tristan Thompson....no more excuses. Get in there and grab some offensive rebounds and put backs for goodness sake! Dude is shooting 43 percent without Demar and you want even more plays run for him? He doesn't even take many shots outside the paint (which honestly I think he can and should take because he can shoot).

What happened to all this elite at drawing fouls talk? Remember you said he was better than Demar at drawing fouls? I honestly don't see this elite talent at all (at least on a semi consistent basis).

At some point the excuses stop and a player reveals himself. Dude has talent but lacks that star player mentally. He can't allow himself to be shut down by Utah, Sacramento slightly (without cousins) and now the Cavs. These are games where he should have big nights.

[godkingleonidas]

I just want to win. Winning solves everything.

[MixxAOR]

Anthony Davis is leading the NBA in points per half court touch with 0.74. Jonas Valanciunas is 2nd at 0.67.

— Heat 9-9 (@ESPN_Nekias) December 6, 2014

[Chr1s1anL]

Last night was a humbling game for JV and Ross. These guys just aren't ready for the big moments

[Axel]

But but didn't people think that JV's usage would increase? Wasn't it somehow Derozan's fault he can't get shots up?? The OP is right...small sample size but it appears Ross and JV are getting exposed indeed. Neither can consistently create for themselves and their fanboys are running out of excuses. Now it's all Casey's fault... Lol

JV has more plays run for him than Tristan Thompson....no more excuses. Get in there and grab some offensive rebounds and put backs for goodness sake! Dude is shooting 43 percent without Demar and you want even more plays run for him? He doesn't even take many shots outside the paint (which honestly I think he can and should take because he can shoot).

What happened to all this elite at drawing fouls talk? Remember you said he was better than Demar at drawing fouls? I honestly don't see this elite talent at all (at least on a semi consistent basis).

At some point the excuses stop and a player reveals himself. Dude has talent but lacks that star player mentally. He can't allow himself to be shut down by Utah, Sacramento slightly (without cousins) and now the Cavs. These are games where he should have big nights.

There are only 2 players on this team that can consistently create for themselves, Lowry and Lou. Demar spent years developing and still isn't at their level and often needs a myriad of screens to work off of. But you expect a pair of 3rd year guys to create their own shot?

That simply isn't realistic. If players aren't given opportunities within the offence, then you can't say they aren't able to produce in higher roles.

[NaijaBoy17]

Knock Tristan Thompson on his ass, grab a fucking rebound or get a hand up on Carlos fucking Boozer and maybe will talk about running a play for you, JV.

You guys having a pity party for JV make me sick. Stop treating JV like a DOTA character that the rest of the team is responsible for levelling up.

At some point, he has to prove through energy, assertiveness, and physicality, that he deserves a bigger role on the team. Right now he's a 7'0 player that plays smaller than Kyle Lowry. Think about that. Lowry is more physical than JV.

What I would love to see, more than anything, is JV get pissed off and use all 6 of his fouls. I want him to start taking the game personally again. Drop your shoulder in the post and just run over some dudes.

This JV needs to fucking play aggressive. How the hell is a 6'9 Tristan Thompson pushing around JV at 7'0 255. He should've been SWALLOWING rebounds in the Cavs game and intimidating people at the rim.

Tyson Chandler doesn't get the kind of touches JV does, but he plays way harder defensively and aggressively on the glass. It's not an excuse. Let's not turn this into another Bargnani situation here where we make excuses for everything.

[Chr1s1anL]

This JV needs to fucking play aggressive. How the hell is a 6'9 Tristan Thompson pushing around JV at 7'0 255. He should've been SWALLOWING rebounds in the Cavs game and intimidating people at the rim.

Tyson Chandler doesn't get the kind of touches JV does, but he plays way harder defensively and aggressively on the glass. It's not an excuse. Let's not turn this into another Bargnani situation here where we make excuses for everything.

+1

[NaijaBoy17]

I don't think it should sour us on Ross/JV as much as it should make us appreciate Derozan.

I think one of the biggest things the analytics movement has really missed in recent years is that you can't just transfer shots around from player to player on a whim and have the stats extrapolate out perfectly. It's not as simple as saying "Derozan shoots X % and JV and Ross shoot over Y % so if you give half a dozen of DD's shots to them the team will score Z more points per game." You take away a team's number one offensive option and you will see a trickle down effect from options 2 through 12. They all get more attention defensively. They all get less space to operate.

Plus DD has grown into a pretty solid defensive player from a team/schematic view. They're missing him on the defensive side, as crazy as that may seem to some.

Been trying to say this on here all season.

Yes DeRozan is not an efficient scorer, but you cannot just give his shots to a group of players who are more efficient (at significantly lower volume) and just magically expect them to maintain their production.

And I hope people will accept that DeRozan is an above-average defender at this point. Our defense is much worse with him out because of how well he plays within a team defensive scheme. Vasquez has no clue on that end of the floor.

[special1]

There are only 2 players on this team that can consistently create for themselves, Lowry and Lou. Demar spent years developing and still isn't at their level and often needs a myriad of screens to work off of. But you expect a pair of 3rd year guys to create their own shot?

That simply isn't realistic. If players aren't given opportunities within the offence, then you can't say they aren't able to produce in higher roles.

Maybe they currently don't deserve higher roles??

What are you seeing out there? I'm see players who seem to lose confidence at the drop of a hat. They both (JV in particular) make really bad defensive plays and offer very little on the offensive end.

JV has many wide open looks that he doesn't take...(que the pump fake)...he rarely gets deep post position and doesn't have many moves at all. He doesn't seem to have a quickness advantage against other Centers either. Ross is really a 3 point specialist and a dunker. I see very little playmaking from him at all. This is sad because he rarely gets guarded by the other teams best defender. They BOTH need to be a lot more aggressive. Maybe they both need a Morpheus (from the Matrix) .."don't think you are....know you are."

[NaijaBoy17]

There are only 2 players on this team that can consistently create for themselves, Lowry and Lou. Demar spent years developing and still isn't at their level and often needs a myriad of screens to work off of. But you expect a pair of 3rd year guys to create their own shot?

That simply isn't realistic. If players aren't given opportunities within the offence, then you can't say they aren't able to produce in higher roles.

This is wrong.

50% of DeMar's FGs were assisted last year. Lowry was at 43%. Lou was at 48%.

Some other guards/wings known for being shot creators:

Dwyane Wade: 44%
LeBron: 42%
Paul George: 49%
Durant: 47%
Joe Johnson: 46%

The only guys that were significantly lower than this 42-50% range were very ball dominant scorers, who do the bulk of their damage out of isos, such as Melo (39%) and Harden (34%). Aside from that the players you'll see in the low-mid 30s or even high 20s in terms of % of FGs assisted are ball-dominant point guards.

I'm so tired of hearing DeRozan can't create his own shot. You don't score 23ppg at league average efficiency (with only half of your FGs being assisted) by not being able to create. You don't get to the free throw line 8 times a game by not being able to create. Teams don't throw doubles at players that can't create their own shot.

[NaijaBoy17]

Anthony Davis is leading the NBA in points per half court touch with 0.74. Jonas Valanciunas is 2nd at 0.67.

— Heat 9-9 (@ESPN_Nekias) December 6, 2014

This is not a justification to force-feed the ball to JV more, why do people not get that?

Points-per-halfcourt shot is a category that is typically led by players who do not have to create their own shots. I'm googling right now to try and find the actual statistical list, but I'm sure guys like Tyson CHandler, Brandon Wright, Robin Lopez, Klay Thompson (maybe not as much this year, but last year), Kyle Korver, etc are right around the top.

Davis is near the top because he's playing out of his damn mind and is a bonafide superstar talent.

[bryan colangelo]

JV wasn't on the court for 7 of the 9 Off Boards grabbed by Thompson. The other 2 came in a flurry at 4:40 in the third where Thompson grabbed an off board, went back up and got his shot blocked by JV and came down with the ball.

So there is his 2 off boards on JV. One real one and one from getting blocked.

Most of Thompson's success came on Patterson.

If JV played like he gave a shit, Casey wouldn't have had to give Hayes and 2Pat his minutes.

JV should have dominated that game. The Cavs could not box out. Even guys like Lowry were sneaking in for offensive boards. There is absolutely NO reason why JV could not have dominated the game the way Amir did. Everyone on the Raptors knew it.

Casey being forced to play small in the fourth is JV's fault. 100%. That's how much JV let his team down. He should have been the best big in the game last night.