Everything 2015 Raptor free agency pursuit (non current Raptor)

[planetmars]

Oh, I'm sure they will try, since they would not need to use the MLE - they could keep their Bird Rights, and just sign both to whatever they wanted. But there has to be salary going the other way, and unless there are teams clamouring after Greivis Vasquez or Patrick Patterson, or we are willing to part with a couple picks, it might be hard to find a partner to dance with.

Both Thomas and Thabo were traded into cap room to generate TPE's for their team. A sign and trade where the original team takes on salary (allowing the other team to make the deal without clearing cap room) is much, much more rare.

Can't Masai renounce the cap holds for Amir/Lou/Hayes/Fields/Psycho, then use the cap space they got to trade for Millsap (as an example), letting Atlanta get a large TPE, a conditional pick and say Deandre Daniels. Then use the MLE to resign one of Amir or Lou?

[raptors999]

Can't Masai renounce the cap holds for Amir/Lou/Hayes/Fields/Psycho, then use the cap space they got to trade for Millsap (as an example), letting Atlanta get a large TPE, a conditional pick and say Deandre Daniels. Then use the MLE to resign one of Amir or Lou?

Yes, the cap holds for Amir and Lou are 1.5 times their salaries and both will be resigned for less regardless of the team. Renouncing one or both makes sense depending on what Toronto wants to do.

[DanH]

Can't Masai renounce the cap holds for Amir/Lou/Hayes/Fields/Psycho, then use the cap space they got to trade for Millsap (as an example), letting Atlanta get a large TPE, a conditional pick and say Deandre Daniels. Then use the MLE to resign one of Amir or Lou?

Yes to all of that until you get to the MLE. As soon as the team renounces those cap holds, they clear cap room (cap room they need to be able to absorb Millsap). Once a team has cap room, they lose the MLE, which by definition cannot exist at the same time as cap room. It's gone until the next offseason. In it's place they now have the 2.8M Room MLE, also known as the not-nearly-enough-for-Lou-or-Amir exception.

[DanH]

Yes, the cap holds for Amir and Lou are 1.5 times their salaries and both will be resigned for less regardless of the team. Renouncing one or both makes sense depending on what Toronto wants to do.

The size of the cap holds are largely meaningless unless they are very small, which would allow a team to sign other free agents first and then sign their own free agents (a rare circumstance - best example is Chandler Parsons this past summer). Since Amir and Lou's cap holds are big enough to eliminate our cap room, the decision on when to sign them is irrelevant - it really does come down to whether they sign them (and end up over the cap) or let them walk (and gain cap room to chase another free agent).

[raptors999]

Yes to all of that until you get to the MLE. As soon as the team renounces those cap holds, they clear cap room (cap room they need to be able to absorb Millsap). Once a team has cap room, they lose the MLE, which by definition cannot exist at the same time as cap room. It's gone until the next offseason. In it's place they now have the 2.8M Room MLE, also known as the not-nearly-enough-for-Lou-or-Amir exception.

The MLE is available until it is renounced. It subtracts from the cap space. If a team tries to maximize space they renounce, if they have a player to be resign for less than the cap hold and below the MLE. Renounce the cap hold and sign for the MLE.

[planetmars]

Yes to all of that until you get to the MLE. As soon as the team renounces those cap holds, they clear cap room (cap room they need to be able to absorb Millsap). Once a team has cap room, they lose the MLE, which by definition cannot exist at the same time as cap room. It's gone until the next offseason. In it's place they now have the 2.8M Room MLE, also known as the not-nearly-enough-for-Lou-or-Amir exception.

But, in my proposal they are "trading" Millsap into that cap room.. which by definition should allow them to keep the full non-taxpayer MLE, assuming the S&T gets them above the cap. Or am I wrong?

[DanH]

The MLE is available until it is renounced. It subtracts from the cap space. If a team tries to maximize space they renounce, if they have a player to be resign for less than the cap hold and below the MLE. Renounce the cap hold and sign for the MLE.

The first sentence is true. What is also true is that a team can have zero contracts on the books, and until they renounce the MLE, they will not have cap room. They cannot exist at the same time.

Yes, it is good to have players sign first when they have big cap holds, so you can maximize cap room. In this case though, the only benefit to having cap room is to have all 15M of it to chase a big name. And since signing Amir and/or Lou to any reasonable deal eats that down to less than 10M, significantly less if you bring back both, the end result is that the team will likely choose between staying over the cap entirely, or freeing up all their possible cap room.

[planetmars]

But, in my proposal they are "trading" Millsap into that cap room.. which by definition should allow them to keep the full non-taxpayer MLE, assuming the S&T gets them above the cap. Or am I wrong?

Answered my own question by looking at the CBA FAQ:

26. How do exceptions count against the cap? Does being under the cap always mean that a team has room to sign free agents? Do teams ever lose their exceptions?

If a team is below the cap, then its Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level (either the Taxpayer or Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level, whichever applies to the team) and/or trade exceptions are added to their team salary, and the league treats the team as though they are over the cap1. This is to prevent a loophole, in a manner similar to free agent amounts (see question number 39). A team can't act like it's under the cap and sign free agents using cap room, and then use their Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and/or trade exceptions. Consequently, the exceptions are added to their team salary (putting the team over the cap) if the team is under the cap and adding the exceptions puts them over the cap. If a team is already over the cap, then the exceptions are not added to their team salary. There would be no point in doing so, since there is no cap room for signing free agents.

So being under the cap does not necessarily mean a team has room to sign free agents. For example, assume the cap is $58 million, and a team has $51.5 million committed to salaries. They also have a Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception for $5 million and a trade exception for $5.5 million. Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions also count toward their team salary, increasing their total to $62 million, or $4 million over the cap. So the team actually has no cap room to sign free agents, and instead must use its exceptions to sign players.

Teams have the option to renounce their exceptions in order to reclaim their cap room. So in the example above, if the team renounced their Traded Player and Mid-Level exceptions, then the $10.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $51.5 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which then can be used to sign free agent(s).

So doing the math, we have $15M in expirings which will lower our payroll to $51M. Add the MLE ($5.5M) and you have $56.5M. If we renounce all our other exceptions, but the MLE, and if the cap goes up to $66M then the best we can offer Millsap while keeping the MLE is a starting salary of $9.5M. That's low.. even if you stagger it, he'll probably reject it as Atlanta could just offer him a better deal.

[DanH]

Answered my own question by looking at the CBA FAQ:



So doing the math, we have $15M in expirings which will lower our payroll to $51M. Add the MLE ($5.5M) and you have $56.5M. If we renounce all our other exceptions, but the MLE, and if the cap goes up to $66M then the best we can offer Millsap while keeping the MLE is a starting salary of $9.5M. That's low.. even if you stagger it, he'll probably reject it as Atlanta could just offer him a better deal.

You didn't read far enough though.

A team's exceptions may be lost entirely, or the team may never receive them to begin with. This happens when their team salary is so low that when the exceptions are added to the team salary, the sum is still below the salary cap. If this happens when the exceptions arise, then the team doesn't get their exceptions at all. If the team salary ever drops below this level during the year, then any unused portions of their exceptions are lost (and do not return if the team salary increases).

For example, assume there is a $58 million salary cap, and during the offseason a team has $50 million committed to salaries, along with a Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception for $5 million, a trade exception for $2.5 million, and an unrenounced free agent whose free agent amount is $2 million. Their salaries and exceptions total $59.5 million, or $1.5 million over the cap. What if their free agent signs with another team? The $2 million free agent amount comes off their cap, so their team salary (including their remaining exceptions) drops to $57.5 million. This total is below the cap so the team loses its Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level and trade exceptions.

There is logic behind this. The whole idea behind an "exception" is that it is an exception to the rule which says a team cannot go over the salary cap. In other words, an exception is a mechanism which allows a team to function above the cap. If a team isn't over the cap, then the concept of an exception is moot. Therefore, if a team's team salary ever drops this far, its exceptions go away. A rule of thumb is that a team may have either exceptions or cap room, but it can't have both at the same time. However, a team in this situation does qualify to use the Room Mid-Level exception (see question number 25).

So you see in the scenario you outline, when they have 9.5M in cap room even with the MLE there, the MLE disappears and they really have 15M in cap room.

[DanH]

But, in my proposal they are "trading" Millsap into that cap room.. which by definition should allow them to keep the full non-taxpayer MLE, assuming the S&T gets them above the cap. Or am I wrong?

If at any point you are below the cap, you lose the MLE. So in that split second between renouncing your free agents and executing the sign-and-trade, the MLE is gone.

[planetmars]

Thanks Dan!

[Bonus Jonas]

Dan you need to get paid for this stuff, your knowledge of it is ridiculously thorough.

Also, what is the Room Mid-Level Exception?

[DanH]

Dan you need to get paid for this stuff, your knowledge of it is ridiculously thorough.

Also, what is the Room Mid-Level Exception?

It's a new addition. Used to be, if you used cap room to sign a free agent, only way you could exceed the cap to fill out your roster was via minimum signings or trades. Now there is a special MLE for teams that use cap room, that works just like the regular MLE, but is smaller and shorter (2.8M for 2 years). It can only be used after you've used your cap room.

[Icarusdescending]

I'd love to get JV's fellow countryman Donatas Motiejunas. Another 7 footer with beautiful post moves and improving 3 pt range. Solid rim protection too.

[DanH]

I'd love to get JV's fellow countryman Donatas Motiejunas. Another 7 footer with beautiful post moves and improving 3 pt range. Solid rim protection too.

He's not a free agent until 2016 so it would have to be via trade, and I don't think HOU gives up on him the way he's been playing.