Raptors Now #1 Off Rtg

[Fully]

How has Ross not been mentioned?

In essentially 2 weeks of larger offensive responsibilities he has progressed so much. He is a step behind DD in terms of consistency, but imo is ahead already in handles, playmaking, flow and obviously shooting. Impressive

Ross has become a less efficient player since DeRozan went down, and his playmaking stats are as bad as they've ever been despite the higher usage rate and bump in minutes. Sometimes I'm not sure where you guys get this stuff. Yes, he's scoring a few more points per night, but he's also doing it on lower percentages across the board. Surprise, surprise… the more shots you take and the more offensive responsibility you inherit, the harder it becomes to sustain those tidy efficiency stats.

The team has been slightly more efficient on offence since DD went down, but has seen a pretty significant drop on defence at the same time. Overall the loss of DeRozan has been a negative on their margins by over 5 points per 100 possessions.

The team has swung the ball beautifully over the last handful of games, and I hope that DD avoids the habit of ball stopping that can be so hard to watch when he returns.

[mcHAPPY]

Ross has become a less efficient player since DeRozan went down, and his playmaking stats are as bad as they've ever been despite the higher usage rate and bump in minutes. Sometimes I'm not sure where you guys get this stuff. Yes, he's scoring a few more points per night, but he's also doing it on lower percentages across the board. Surprise, surprise… the more shots you take and the more offensive responsibility you inherit, the harder it becomes to sustain those tidy efficiency stats.

The team has been slightly more efficient on offence since DD went down, but has seen a pretty significant drop on defence at the same time. Overall the loss of DeRozan has been a negative on their margins.

The team has swung the ball beautifully over the last handful of games, and I hope that DD avoids the habit of ball stopping that can be so hard to watch when he returns.

Regarding Ross' individual offence, it is still more efficient than DeRozan while taking 4 less shots per game.

Regarding Raptors team offence, it is more balanced and efficient.

Regarding Raptors team defense, it was on the skids prior to DD's injury.

[Other Scott]

The ORtg with DeMar in the lineup was 110.7, good for second in the league. Since then, it's been 113.2. The defense has fallen from just over 100 to 107.5.

To match that up to their schedule, with DeRozan in the lineup they played teams with an average of 103.0 defensive rating, meaning they scored 7.7 more pts/100 possessions than average against those teams. Without DeRozan, they've played teams with an average of 105.6 DRTG. meaning they are 7.6 points/possession higher. The offense is basically unchanged when taking into account the strength of opposition defense.

Meanwhile, the offensive rating of teams they played with and without DeRozan is virtually unchanged (103.5 with, 103.0 without). So the defense has gone down significantly in that stretch.

However, keep in mind that correlation does not imply causation. In that same stretch, Dallas' offense has fallen from 114.1 to 109.8, and until very recently they had basically the same personnel. I have a hard time believing that an average defender like DeRozan affects the team defense that significantly. I believe there to be a lot of random variation in these numbers, as the sample size just isn't that large.

It's possible the team is expending more effort on the offensive end to make up for the gap DeRozan leaves and suffering defensively as a result, but I really have no idea.

[special1]

The winning clip with DeMar in the lineup versus out of the lineup MINUS Vasquez starting is near identical (.820 versus .800).

At the end of the day winning is what matters? I'm not sure. I was always told by numerous posters around here that a W is a W but now you're saying that wins versus sub .500 teams don't matter? I'm confused.

See.... The debate goes on

Vasquez struggled all season long. A win is a win. 14-3 with Demar as opposed to 11-4 without shouldn't be ignored.... I just noted the fact we played 6 straight games against sub .500 teams....not sure why you're confused.

Depth has always been our saving grace.


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[Fully]

Regarding Ross' individual offence, it is still more efficient than DeRozan while taking 4 less shots per game.

Regarding Raptors team offence, it is more balanced and efficient.

Regarding Raptors team defense, it was on the skids prior to DD's injury.

Read the post that I replied to again. It says that Ross is breaking out in DeRozan's absence in terms of shooting (when in fact he's shooting a lower 3PT% and a significantly lower TS% since DD went down), playmaking (when in fact he's averaging a lower APG and his AST% has dropped since before DD went down despite higher minutes and the ball in his hands more), handles (still only getting to the free throw line once per game on average despite higher minutes/more usage/more shot attempts) and of course flow. What part of this do you agree with and what stats are there to back any of it up? It's not a DD vs. T-Ross debate, just throwing some water on a post that made no sense.

And the second part of your post… I'm not sure what to say. Very illogical to attribute the slight bump in one category (offense) to DD's absence and then completely dismiss the impact that he has on the significant drop in the other category (defence). Of course there can be other factors that will make these numbers rise/drop aside from DD's injury but to only apply that sensibility to the one side of the argument that suits you doesn't make sense.

[mcHAPPY]

Read the post that I replied to again. It says that Ross is breaking out in DeRozan's absence in terms of shooting (when in fact he's shooting a lower 3PT% and a significantly lower TS% since DD went down), playmaking (when in fact he's averaging a lower APG and AST RATE than he averaged before DD went down despite higher minutes and the ball in his hands more), handles (still only getting to the free throw once per game on average despite higher minutes/more usage/more shot attempts) and of course flow. What part of this do you agree with and what stats are there to back any of it up? It's not a DD vs. T-Ross debate, just throwing some water on a post that made no sense.

And the second part of your post… I'm not sure what to say. Very illogical to attribute the slight bump in one category (offense) to DD's absence and then completely dismiss the impact that he has on the significant drop in the other category.

First paragraph: I don't disagree and yet despite all that he is still more efficient and the team is playing better offense from a statistical perspective and an eye test. I don't agree Ross is breaking out - his inconsistency is a major concern.

Second paragraph: All true. The team defense was on the skids the 2.5 games prior to his injury. Starting Vasquez did nothing to help those numbers. The Raps then got back to solid defense (big hoopla among writers about back to defense practices) and now they've gone off the rails again during what is sure to be a lack of practice time around holidays.



So in summary: Raps are not necessarily worse off without DeRozan as many people claimed since he has been out.

[Fully]

First paragraph: I don't disagree and yet despite all that he is still more efficient and the team is playing better offense from a statistical perspective and an eye test. I don't agree Ross is breaking out - his inconsistency is a major concern.

Second paragraph: All true. The team defense was on the skids the 2.5 games prior to his injury. Starting Vasquez did nothing to help those numbers. The Raps then got back to solid defense (big hoopla among writers about back to defense practices) and now they've gone off the rails again during what is sure to be a lack of practice time around holidays.



So in summary: Raps are not necessarily worse off without DeRozan as many people claimed since he has been out.

I completely agree with the last part. The team has played fantastic without him.

I just think it should be more of a testament to the guys who have stepped up in his absence rather than an indictment of DD himself.

[mcHAPPY]

I completely agree with the last part. The team has played fantastic without him.

I just think it should be more of a testament to the guys who have stepped up in his absence rather than an indictment of DD himself.

Were they given opportunity to step up previously?

I just like the way they've been playing of late on offense. I think it is much more sustainable come playoffs.

[Other Scott]

First paragraph: I don't disagree and yet despite all that he is still more efficient and the team is playing better offense from a statistical perspective and an eye test. I don't agree Ross is breaking out - his inconsistency is a major concern.

Second paragraph: All true. The team defense was on the skids the 2.5 games prior to his injury. Starting Vasquez did nothing to help those numbers. The Raps then got back to solid defense (big hoopla among writers about back to defense practices) and now they've gone off the rails again during what is sure to be a lack of practice time around holidays.



So in summary: Raps are not necessarily worse off without DeRozan as many people claimed since he has been out.

The team defense was not on the skids. It had one bad game against the Hawks right before his injury. Prior to that they gave up less than 101 points for 8 straight games. And the getting back on track you are talking about might have had something to do with playing the Pacers, Magic, Knicks, Nets and Pistons.

[mcHAPPY]

The team defense was not on the skids. It had one bad game against the Hawks right before his injury. Prior to that they gave up less than 101 points for 8 straight games. And the getting back on track you are talking about might have had something to do with playing the Pacers, Magic, Knicks, Nets and Pistons.

Right you are.

Not sure why I thought this.

Must have been the 34 point 4th versus PHX that distorted my memory.


As for getting on track, it might have been, or it might have been attributed to an emphasis in practice or it might have been both or it might have been neither.

[bryan colangelo]

The offense hasn't improved just because Derozan is out, it's improved because Lowry's usage rate has spiked and he's seriously playing out of his mind. Guys have compensated for Derozan's absence by moving better off the ball, and Lowry has really stepped up by finding them for open looks.

Ross deserves some credit, he looks much better out there in the shooting guard roll, getting into the lane and shooting from more spots on the floor. But to be honest he's know comparison to Derozan, who is a much better playmaker at this stage of his career and gets to the line at an elite rate. Ross has all the tools to get to the line and make plays, he just needs more will, grit and experience.

But man, imagine if Ross and Derozan become interchangeable? We could start the game with three guys that can shoot, drive and kick and initiate the offense with Amir and JV to screen/pick and roll on either side of the floor. It would be sick and add even more versatility to our roster.

[special1]

Right you are.

Not sure why I thought this.

Must have been the 34 point 4th versus PHX that distorted my memory.


As for getting on track, it might have been, or it might have been attributed to an emphasis in practice or it might have been both or it might have been neither.

I must say now I'm confused....I guess it might have been neither? Or practice or both?

It's a lot easier to simplify things.

Winning percentage with or without a player accomplishes this. We have a better winning percentage with Demar than without Demar. Just like we have a better win percentage with Vasquez not starting as you mentioned earlier (extremely small sample size).....or as I see it, Vasquez has had a tough time all season.

I'm definitely not ready to give up on Vasquez tho.


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[jimmyhunter]

I agree completely with Fully.

Demar isn't the kind of player that lends towards analytics purely because his game consists mostly of mid-range jumpers and drives to the hoop. His impact on our offence is a positive one purely because he commands so much attention from opposing defences and can get to the line seemingly at will. There is simply no way adding an all-star wing to our perimeter attack makes us a worse team offensively, look beyond the analytics for Demar. Obviously his usage rate needs to go down upon his return however, so as to allow his teammates to continue their highly efficient production.

Defensively it is without question that DeRozan has a positive impact on our defence, and frankly I cant believe it either.

And just to make one thing clear; Ross is far behind DeRozan's developmental curve offensively. At age 23 Demar was averaging 18/4/2.5 while getting to the line 5 times a game. He already possessed an acute mastery of the mid-range game and had the makings of a potent (albeit rough) back-to-the-basket game. Without question Ross is just plain and simple a more naturally talented shooter than DeRozan but he isn't nearly as versatile, refuses to use his athleticism in halfcourt settings, doesn't put enough pressure on the defence off the dribble, has no post game, and generally lacks heart.

Sidebar: I have no idea where this school of thought that Ross has better handles than DeRozan came from. DeRozan has made vast improvements in this area and his free-throw rate is a testament to his ability to break his man down of the dribble and get into the paint, none of which Ross can do. Ross' looks fancier, but isn't in DeRozan's ballpark in terms of effectiveness - he doesn't know how to use it yet.

I have to get this off my chest. DeRozan has no excuse for not being an elite defender. Ross has no excuse for not being an elite defender. Our wings need to have more pride in this regard. The way we have been abused by opposing wings in the past 2-3 years has been unacceptable and we will continue to get exposed until DeRozan puts more effort in on that end and Ross just mans up.

Our Raptors are 24-7. They are doing a lot of things right. Hopefully they can keep the ball rolling. We are a better team with more options when Demar is healthy.

[Scraptor]

I have to get this off my chest. DeRozan has no excuse for not being an elite defender. Ross has no excuse for not being an elite defender. Our wings need to have more pride in this regard. The way we have been abused by opposing wings in the past 2-3 years has been unacceptable and we will continue to get exposed until DeRozan puts more effort in on that end and Ross just mans up.

DeMar's limiting factor is not effort, but his lateral quickness. He just doesn't have it. He's put in much better effort the last couple years, becoming a solid defender, but he will likely never be an elite defender due to his lack of lateral quicks.

Ross has the quickness to become an elite defender, but his issue is focus. The guy gets seriously lost at times, on both ends of the court.

I agree with you about everything else.

[3inthekeon]

Gotta agree on the lateral quickness limiting DeMar.

Couple of other points - 1) DeMar's D seemed better this year than last. It was brought up in a Harden story that a number Team USA guys have stepped up their D early this season giving credit to the Team USA coaching staff. How residual the effect will be is open for debate. Short term lingering effect or a permanent bump?

2) In a main page piece it was suggested one area where DD positively affects team D is by virtue of him getting to the free throw line so often. This limits opposing teams transition offence and allows our D to get set.