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Thread: The Dichotomy of Raptor Fans

  1. #1
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    Default The Dichotomy of Raptor Fans

    There is seemingly two distinct camps forming in raptorland as the season is comes to a wrap.

    One is the eternally optimistic lets just keep winning, sneak into the play offs and see what happens. You can't fault these guys, they cheer for thier team because they want it to win. What is the point of rooting for your team to lose. Seems a little contradictory or even hypocritical. Nothing can deter these fans from rooting for thier team, not a season ending injury to thier best player or the looming prospect of playing the best team in the NBA in the first round. This camp lives for today and is less concerned with the consequences of tomorrow.

    The other camp wants desperately to get out of today and into the brighter future that tomorrow might bring. We constantly criticize and denigrate our team for its failures and inadequacies and are more than happy to sacrifice what little joy is left today for the prospect of a glorious tomorrow. Making play offs to us seems like taking one step forward and two steps back. Who cheers against the play offs? I remember where I was for every raptor home play off game and win or lose it was always a wild ride.

    Both camps seemingly want the same thing, but by virtue of two different paths. Is one camp more in the right than the other? The goal is to win a NBA championship, but if only one team can win that each year, shouldn't making the play offs be enough?

    I remember when all I cared about was if the raptors won on a given night or not. I hate that I have lost that innocence and have allowed all these peripheral influences like draft picks and play off seedings to cloud my passion.

    Its time to put the cynicism on the back-burner and finish the season like we started, hopelessly optimistic with delusions of grandeur.

  2. #2
    Administrator Dr. James Naismith's Avatar
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    Well said mo-sales.

    I figure I'm floating somewhere in the middle. Believe it or not (and something I'm ashamed of as a fan) there are certain nights where I look forward to a loss. One, a loss always makes for better conversation because as fans we're typically more opinionated then and two, you hope that the loss will help the team figure out their deficiencies from that night and have them come back stronger for the next game. Unfortunately that hasn't been the case this season.

    All in all, Colangelo has built a team of great individual players, but a team of players that don't compliment each other at all. Something that he must fix this summer. If not, then its time for a new GM come the 2011-2012 season.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Both are right in their own way. The first camp is following their heart and the second is following their brain.

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    Raptors Republic Starter rdiaz101's Avatar
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    I think making the playoffs this year will help the young core group of players we have and u never know what could happen Dwade stepped up in the playoffs a few years back and remember Tmac showed some flashes of greatness back when we played the Knicks. So im not saying they are going to take down LBJ but it will be a good experience for them. So im not going to cheer for them to lose even tho they will go 0-3 this week, but they will beat the bulls and thats the one that matters .

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Then there is a third camp to which some of us belong.

    We just love to see good competitive sports events between or among individuals and/or teams regardless of the level of play. Of course there is no denying that the higher the level of the play the more interesting and exciting.

    However, I would rather watch two mediocre teams battle down to the wire than the best team in the league blow out another team no matter how good the losing team is.

    There is no fun for this cat in watching non-competitive athletics no matter who the winner is.

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    Put me in the Buddahfan camp. I get absolutely nothing from a very good team beating up on a mediocre team...and I am sorry but in reality that is what the Cavs. vs the Raps would be. And I am a supporter of the Raps. How would this be of any use especially when there is an ancillary this season to retaining a lottery pick which may turn out to be a good addition going forward. If we were the the 5-6 seed there would be no question.

    disclaimer...I love to see the Yankees get beat by ANY team.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
    I think making the playoffs this year will help the young core group of players we have and u never know what could happen Dwade stepped up in the playoffs a few years back and remember Tmac showed some flashes of greatness back when we played the Knicks. So im not saying they are going to take down LBJ but it will be a good experience for them. So im not going to cheer for them to lose even tho they will go 0-3 this week, but they will beat the bulls and thats the one that matters .
    What's worth more, four games of playoff experience or a 1st round lotto pick in a capped out rebuild off-season?

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    Raptors Republic Starter rdiaz101's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    What's worth more, four games of playoff experience or a 1st round lotto pick in a capped out rebuild off-season?
    Playoffs

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    The goal should be to build a title contender. Whichever road better leads to title contention is the best road to take.

    Which I believe is the draft pick since this team is light on (1) trade assets (2) cap flexibility (3) young talent.

    If the Raptors had a lot of young talent which through patience and internal development could later grow and become a title contender, then playoff experience would be more very valuable ... but this is not the case.
    Last edited by Dave; Wed Apr 7th, 2010 at 03:11 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter rdiaz101's Avatar
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    Quote Dave wrote: View Post
    The goal should be to build a title contender. Whichever road better leads to title contention is the best road to take.

    Which I believe is the draft pick since this team is light on (1) trade assets (2) cap flexibility (3) young talent.

    If the Raptors had a lot of young talent which through patience and internal development could later grow and become a title contender, then playoff experience would be more very valuable ... but this is not the case.
    Ok yeah because Bargs,Jack,Amir,Sonny and DD are such seasoned playoff veterans LOL. Especially when 4/5 are under contract with the team for a few more years.
    "Hello, Hello !.....You Play to Win the GAME!!"

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    My best case scenario is miss play offs, take Greg Monroe, S and T Bosh to Houston for Brooks (they have lowry) and rebuild with a core of Brooks, Derozan, Weems, Amir, Monroe, Bargs.

    Fast paced, up and down team that prides itself in transition offense and defense. Won't win too many games right away, but it'll be a fun, hard working team that doesn't take nights off or give up 144 points. Try and ship Turk/Jose for EC's and take on reclamation projects and hope to get lucky.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    "Monroe is a lock for the top 10, but he is still weighing his decision. He's also easily one of the most polite players I've seen," Andy Katz wrote on ESPN.com.
    RealGM.com

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Both are right in their own way. The first camp is following their heart and the second is following their brain.
    I don't understand how the second camp is following their brain. The best Raptors can do at this time is to fall to the 9th place which means an 15th or 16th draft pick . If they will make the playoffs, they will have an 17th or 18th draft pick. How is that a big difference?

    I just want to see Raptors giving their best on the floor. Build a winning mentality should be the priority number one. The current season went wrong not because Raptors doesn't have a great team, but something just didn't work mentally after the All-Star Games.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    I don't understand how the second camp is following their brain. The best Raptors can do at this time is to fall to the 9th place which means an 15th or 16th draft pick . If they will make the playoffs, they will have an 17th or 18th draft pick. How is that a big difference?
    If they make the playoffs they lose their draft pick to Miami due to a past trade.

    Make the playoffs = No first rounder
    Miss the playoffs = One first rounder

    By the way, right now they're sitting with the 13th worst record in the league and Chicago takes their playoff spot make that 12th. The 12th pick is better than no pick. As much as I'd like to have a team to cheer for in the playoffs I realize they'll be lucky to win a single game.

    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    I just want to see Raptors giving their best on the floor.
    Hasn't happened all season. What makes you think that's changing now? They look completely defeat to me.

    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    Build a winning mentality should be the priority number one.
    Time to accept that's not happening this year.

    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    The current season went wrong not because Raptors doesn't have a great team, but something just didn't work mentally after the All-Star Games.
    It went wrong because they stopped trying. Stopped caring. Lacked leadership. Lacked accountability. Lacked toughness.
    Last edited by Apollo; Wed Apr 7th, 2010 at 04:47 PM.

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    Quote rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
    Ok yeah because Bargs,Jack,Amir,Sonny and DD are such seasoned playoff veterans LOL. Especially when 4/5 are under contract with the team for a few more years.
    It depends on how much potential you think those five players have to improve.

    Outside of DeRozan, I'm not optimistic about their ability to improve by leaps and bounds.

    We're talking about a .500 team becoming a title contender. That is a huge amount of improvement. If you believe those players can engineer that, then fine, playoffs all the way. I don't see that type of potential though.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Deadallus's Avatar
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    How about a 4th camp.

    The camp who is tired of watching management bumble along making foolish decisions year after year.
    The camp who is fed up with washed up, over-valued players collecting a final paycheck and mailing it in once they come North of the border.
    The camp who wants to vomit watching another player come up here make a name for himself, whine that he has no help, then jump ship for greener pastures.

    Give me back those teams of old that played their asses off whether they had the talent to compete or not. I have no problem watching the Raptors lose when they lay it all on the line, like they did against the Lakers in L.A. What I cannot tolerate is watching a team just go through the motions, hovering somewhere between potential good and incredibly underachieving. The team name should be changed to the Toronto Marshmallows. They are soft from the management, to the coaches to the players. This organization gets bullied around and dangles that carrot of hope in front of the fans noses year, after year, after year. Loyalty only goes so far. My patience is being tested.
    Deadallus

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    Your camp needs to stay away from roof tops and bridges.

    Yea, its pretty impressive how spotty BC's record as President/GM has been. He's hit a lot of singles (Amir, Sonny, AP) , a couple doubles (Jack, Derozan, Bargs), has yet to hit a triple and wasted a lot of plate appearances swinging for the fences, but sadly striking out. He got caught stealing (Turk) and made a serious miscalculation promoting the third base coach to manager.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Dave wrote: View Post
    We're talking about a .500 team becoming a title contender. That is a huge amount of improvement. If you believe those players can engineer that, then fine, playoffs all the way. I don't see that type of potential though.
    Good point. If they make it it's not even like they're going back the following year to build on it. This off-season is probably going to be a rebuild and those four games of post season play will have little value compared to the potential of a 13-15 overall 1st rounder.

    Players taken 13-15 sorted by year:
    2008
    13. Brandon Rush
    14. Anthony Randolph
    15. Robin Lopez

    2007
    13. Julian Wright
    14. Al Thornton
    15. Rodney Stuckey

    2006
    13. Thabo Sefolasha
    14. Ronnie Brewer
    15. Cedric Simmons

    2005
    13. Antoine Wright
    14. Joey Graham
    15. Danny Granger

    2004
    13. Sebastian Telfair
    14. Kris Humphries
    15. Al Jefferson

    What the trend over the past five years, excluding this current draft class, seems to be that most years there is a star, very nice rotation player and a end of the rotation player to be had from 13-15. Three out of these five years a home run was hit with the 15th pick for whatever its worth.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    If they make the playoffs they lose their draft pick to Miami due to a past trade.

    Make the playoffs = No first rounder
    Miss the playoffs = One first rounder

    By the way, right now they're sitting with the 13th worst record in the league and Chicago takes their playoff spot make that 12th. The 12th pick is better than no pick. As much as I'd like to have a team to cheer for in the playoffs I realize they'll be lucky to win a single game.



    Hasn't happened all season. What makes you think that's changing now? They look completely defeat to me.



    Time to accept that's not happening this year.



    It went wrong because they stopped trying. Stopped caring. Lacked leadership. Lacked accountability. Lacked toughness.
    Well, the draft pick is going to be lost anyway, this year or in near future. Anyway, this is a different matter, the bets that Collangelo did are starting to show the "dividends".

    Regarding the current lack of leadership/toughness/accountability - if you are so convinced that this is true, then why are you even talking about tanking? Tanking is when you could win the games but actually the players are just not giving their best efforts and lose games intentionally. Based on your assessment, Raptors may end up missing the playoff and get the draft pick not because tanking but because they are not capable of more.

  20. #20
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    When the pick is lost is a huge detail. Do you want to give up a draft pick at the beginning of a rebuild or on the up wing?

    I've never mentioned tanking once.

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