#FireCasey

[slaw]

Draft picks and prospects are tangible assets, not magic beans. And that is worst case return on trade.

And there still hasn't been a single post on this forum that provides a way to add talent above KL/DD/JV without trading at least one of them away. So yeah, either these people are cool with just making the first round or they don't know what to do.

Tell you what, you give me a list of all the players available via trade in the NBA and what their respective GMs want for them and I'll give you some trade ideas. Then, tell me what the agents for all the free agents are demanding and where their players want to go and I'll tell you what's possible in free agency.

EDIT: Oh, the worst case scenario on a draft pick is not a trade. The worst case scenario is a bust or a guy who never sets foot in the NBA. There are massive underlying assumptions built into your line of thinking that are completely glossed over while anyone with a contrary point of view has to delineate, in precise detail, their plan.

[mcHAPPY]

Scratch Skiles and Orlando off the coaching carousel.

[MACK11]

Scratch Skiles and Orlando off the coaching carousel.

Good for Eastern Conference as a whole

Magic have a lot of young talent and Skiles isn't a coach to be feared

[S.R.]

Good for Eastern Conference as a whole

Magic have a lot of young talent and Skiles isn't a coach to be feared

They'll fire Skiles in two years.

[distorsun]

3

They'll fire Skiles in two years.

[Superjudge]

all meh

[Axel]

Tell you what, you give me a list of all the players available via trade in the NBA and what their respective GMs want for them and I'll give you some trade ideas. Then, tell me what the agents for all the free agents are demanding and where their players want to go and I'll tell you what's possible in free agency.

EDIT: Oh, the worst case scenario on a draft pick is not a trade. The worst case scenario is a bust or a guy who never sets foot in the NBA. There are massive underlying assumptions built into your line of thinking that are completely glossed over while anyone with a contrary point of view has to delineate, in precise detail, their plan.

Lol so you're too lazy to come up with an original thought and require a template of trades for you to even bother. Sorry, if you can't look at rosters, teams and cap situations and come up with ideas, then I guess you'll have to sit this conversation out.

Worst case scenario comment was in regards to trade return for DD or KL. a combo of players/picks is likely best case. Regardless of the risk associated with a pick, all of them are considered assets. If you're too scared to make a pick cause of the risks, then you better employ the Nets or Knicks strategy of trading as many picks as you can.

So no assumptions glossing over anything, all picks have risk but they also all have reward. That doesn't need to be stated cause it's freaking obvious for every pick.

[stooley]

Draft picks and prospects are tangible assets, not magic beans. And that is worst case return on trade.

And there still hasn't been a single post on this forum that provides a way to add talent above KL/DD/JV without trading at least one of them away. So yeah, either these people are cool with just making the first round or they don't know what to do.

Ok. I don't know how to add the right talent. But I know it's not impossible when you have all your draft picks plus more, and tons of flexibility.

[Axel]

Ok. I don't know how to add the right talent. But I know it's not impossible when you have all your draft picks plus more, and tons of flexibility.

I think the flexibility is a bit overstated in this case. If we were to trade picks, we still need to follow cap rules. Who you sending out with those picks to make the salaries work and who would accept those players? Outside of the trio mentioned, not many Raps likely have much value or salary to work with. GV is a fat cheque but can't see many teams clamouring to get him. PPatt is likely the best one to go in that scenario, but if you don't get another stretch 4 back (which is kinda hard to do when sending one out) then that creates all kinda spacing issues. Plus there is still the issue of replacing Lou/Amir etc of anyone who walks.

Impossible, no. You are right there but moving bit pieces (even with picks) isn't likely to land us a player better than DD/KL unless Masai gives up multiple future picks. Not sure it's worth doing that for this core.

[stooley]

I think the flexibility is a bit overstated in this case. If we were to trade picks, we still need to follow cap rules. Who you sending out with those picks to make the salaries work and who would accept those players? Outside of the trio mentioned, not many Raps likely have much value or salary to work with. GV is a fat cheque but can't see many teams clamouring to get him. PPatt is likely the best one to go in that scenario, but if you don't get another stretch 4 back (which is kinda hard to do when sending one out) then that creates all kinda spacing issues. Plus there is still the issue of replacing Lou/Amir etc of anyone who walks.

Impossible, no. You are right there but moving bit pieces (even with picks) isn't likely to land us a player better than DD/KL unless Masai gives up multiple future picks. Not sure it's worth doing that for this core.

True.

We could also use those picks and hope one of our next three hits. There's a small chance for one of Bruno or Bebe to be positive contributors in the next two years.

We have plenty of space this year to add a couple pieces that fit really well even though I don't know who they'd be yet.

There's still the chance that derozan keeps making incremental improvements, that Lowry is a good player, and that JV starts to hit his stride.

I don't think building around this core is as hopeless as it's made out to be.

Can we say that we will probably be contenders? No. But in the end there are less contenders than not, so the odds are never in your favour.

I don't think we know for sure what the ceiling is, and I think making that call after the end of this year runs a strong chance of blowing something up that isn't easy to recreate.

We have almost exclusively value contacts on our books. We aren't the hawks, and our ceiling isn't as clear yet as theirs when they blew it up.

[mcHAPPY]

Says the guy whose entire plan rests on collecting magic beans.





What the hell is your problem the last few days? If you were any more condescending you could pass yourself off as a Wall Street banking lawyer.

Magic beans?

Please.

You don't need to make the picks yourself and you don't need to hope for a winner. They are definitely an option but talk with Danny Ainge about the value of MAGIC BEANS. Also, you can take any BEAN you want and you won't find a chance of finding a bit of MAGIC in it. However you can take any draft pick and at the very least have a chance of finding MAGIC.



I apologize if I am condescending these last few days. But it is tough having any type of discussion with people who refuse to offer any insight in to how they see their vision being fulfilled. It is also difficult having these types of conversation when someone who appears to be as intelligent as yourself continues to view a draft pick (current or future) as a one-dimensional asset that is a waste unless it yields an ALL-NBA talent (for one moment I will ignore the fact that outside of select markets, a draft pick is the ONLY way they get an ALL-NBA talent - either through selecting or through part of a trade).

What I truly find amazing is someone who has freely admitted he has no clue on the CBA is constantly posting about how this current team can continue as is and still manage to not only get better but to become a contender. Or wait... maybe I just put words in your mouth - I apologize. I guess the other alternative is you're happy to be a first round exit and anything else is a bonus.

[Axel]

#FireCasey

True.

We could also use those picks and hope one of our next three hits. There's a small chance for one of Bruno or Bebe to be positive contributors in the next two years.

We have plenty of space this year to add a couple pieces that fit really well even though I don't know who they'd be yet.

There's still the chance that derozan keeps making incremental improvements, that Lowry is a good player, and that JV starts to hit his stride.

I don't think building around this core is as hopeless as it's made out to be.

Can we say that we will probably be contenders? No. But in the end there are less contenders than not, so the odds are never in your favour.

I don't think we know for sure what the ceiling is, and I think making that call after the end of this year runs a strong chance of blowing something up that isn't easy to recreate.

We have almost exclusively value contacts on our books. We aren't the hawks, and our ceiling isn't as clear yet as theirs when they blew it up.

And that is fair. I just think the percentages aren't in your favour.

20th picks (Bruno and this year) aren't statistically great players. Solid role players can be found for sure but even with the hope of Bruno it is still as they said on draft night "swinging for the fences".

Same really applies to Bebe. I have hope he can become a really good contributor like Amir, but who really knows. He wasn't a top 10 pick, and without any NBA minutes, really hard to say at this point.

Then we have to find free agents to fill multiple starter spots with just $16M, plus likely replacing other players (Lou? Amir? Hans?).

Then we have the possibility of landing a free agent of top caliber (either this year or another) to eventually add that top player above DD. if we are rolling forward with this group, then we can't really depend on the draft unless both NY and Den suck next year. I won't get into DD improving anymore, but let's just leave it at the history of the NBA doesn't paint that as likely. (I started to research this very topic the other day for a future thread).

So yes, all the things you said are possible, but the success rate/probability of each part seems much lower than the alternatives.

[Scraptor]

I apologize if I am condescending these last few days. But it is tough having any type of discussion with people who refuse to offer any insight in to how they see their vision being fulfilled.

Dude, I don't know how you can be condescending and paint yourself as a tanking pariah, given that a year ago you were using "patience" in the complete opposite direction.

Feb 25th, 2014

Patience and asset accumulation, please!

May 24th, 2014

In summary, ASSET ACCUMULATION is the name of the game right now. Any trade that sends out more assets than it brings in is a no-no. Patience.

July 4th, 2014

Patience desperately needed: Look how far Raptors have come in a year

A lot has happened in the past year and a bit for the Raptors. Tim Leiweke was hired, BC was reassigned, Masai was hired, and BC left the building. That was all off the court. On the court has seen dramatic changes as well.


This was the Raptors line up at the end of the 2012-13 season (34-48):

PG: Lowry, Telfair, JL3
SG: DeRozan, Anderson, Fields
SF: Gay, Ross, Kleiza, Pietrus
PF: Amir, Acy, Bargnani*
C: Valanciunas, Gray

*Injured

Draft pick situation: none in 2013, all first rounders moving forward
Prospects: Zubcic



This was the Raptors line up at the end of the 2013-14 season (48-34):

PG: Lowry, Vasquez, Stone, Buycks
SG: DeRozan, Salmons, De Colo
SF: Ross, Fields, Novak
PF: Amir, Patterson, Hansbrough
C: Valanciunas, Hayes

Draft pick situation: all first rounders moving forward, plus lower of DEN/NYK 2016
Prospects: Zubcic


This is still an unfinished line up heading in to 2014-15:

PG: Lowry, Stone*, Buycks*
SG: DeRozan, Williams, Fields
SF: Ross, Novak, Bruno
PF: Amir, Patterson, Hansbrough
C: Valanciunas, Hayes, Bebe

*Not guaranteed contract

Draft pick situation: all first rounders moving forward, plus lower of DEN/NYK 2016
Prospects: Daniels, Zubcic
Restricted free agents: Patterson, Vasquez, De Colo


This is what Toronto has on the books for 2015-16:

PG: Lowry,
SG: DeRozan
SF: Ross, Novak, Bruno
PF: Patterson
C: JV, Bebe

$42M committed + 1st round pick



So what are the points here?
1. The Raptors have come a long way in a short amount of time.
2. 3 players who ended the 2012-13 season on the roster were no longer in the NBA last year.
3. Only 5 players remain who ended the 2012-13 season today.
4. The team is on the right track for sustainable growth and contention.


Enjoy the ride Raptor fans!
The team is no longer looking for quick fixes and short cuts only to maybe reach the playoffs.

I am not trying to call you out on your decision to change your mind; new information should lead to re-evaluation. But I don't understand your aggravated tone or condescension, given that we are basically exactly in the roster position you anticipated, and you yourself said "the team is on the right track for sustainable growth and contention."

How can you bash other people for having the exact same view you did?

I am philosophically in your corner but surely you can read your own words and understand where others are coming from.

[Axel]

Dude, I don't know how you can be condescending and paint yourself as a tanking pariah, given that a year ago you were using "patience" in the complete opposite direction.

Feb 25th, 2014


May 24th, 2014


July 4th, 2014



I am not trying to call you out on your decision to change your mind; new information should lead to re-evaluation. But I don't understand your aggravated tone or condescension, given that we are basically exactly in the roster position you anticipated, and you yourself said "the team is on the right track for sustainable growth and contention."

How can you bash other people for having the exact same view you did?

I am philosophically in your corner but surely you can read your own words and understand where others are coming from.

I think you are overlooking the "asset accumulation" part of those posts. Really, if you drop #4 "the team is on the right track for growth and contention" - then I don't think the message changed at all. And #4 isn't necessarily untrue, even if people interpret its meaning differently. Right track can include trades. Sustainable growth is JV, Bruno, Bebe and the whole DLeague exercise.

[DanH]

Dude, I don't know how you can be condescending and paint yourself as a tanking pariah, given that a year ago you were using "patience" in the complete opposite direction.

Feb 25th, 2014


May 24th, 2014


July 4th, 2014



I am not trying to call you out on your decision to change your mind; new information should lead to re-evaluation. But I don't understand your aggravated tone or condescension, given that we are basically exactly in the roster position you anticipated, and you yourself said "the team is on the right track for sustainable growth and contention."

How can you bash other people for having the exact same view you did?

I am philosophically in your corner but surely you can read your own words and understand where others are coming from.

But you are completely misinterpreting the intentions of the word patience there. The idea was not to sell the future to get more win-now talent. That growing with young pieces, which showed great promise, was a better course of action than trading picks and prospects for short term fixes.

It was not a call to stick to this core no matter what, or to let assets potentially walk (heck, asset retention was the whole point).

That said, I never saw huge upside myself in this team as constructed, besides the flexibility they would have this summer - which would be useful if they got better this past season and not worse. But after that debacle, a) it brings up valid questions about this core and coach and b) it really cuts down on the likelihood a difference making FA signs here.