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  • Jrice9 wrote: View Post
    They were #9 or 10 (I forget) in basketball last season with him as their #1 scorer. They have been in the top 3-5 this year when he's played.

    Also I would think the ideal would be for the Raptors to get a high level power forward who can at least share the scoring load if not take the #1 spot with Lowry, DeMar and hopefully Jonas
    See the problem with the two Offense rankings is that one was taken over the full season, and the other has taken place over half a season. We're 3rd this season according to ORTG, if we fall to 7th by the end of the season. I think it would be enough to agree our talent level offensively is around 8th or 9th.

    If that's the extent of our capabilities under Casey as coach and DeMar as the #1 option, we need re-evaluate both of their futures with the team, and team's overall future, as we'll need to get better with them, or without them. And if that really is the best we can do, then DeMar getting paid $20+ M per year is not probably not worth it, even under a new $90M cap.

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    • Mindlessness wrote: View Post
      See the problem with the two Offense rankings is that one was taken over the full season, and the other has taken place over half a season. We're 3rd this season according to ORTG, if we fall to 7th by the end of the season. I think it would be enough to agree our talent level offensively is around 8th or 9th.

      If that's the extent of our capabilities under Casey as coach and DeMar as the #1 option, we need re-evaluate both of their futures with the team, and team's overall future, as we'll need to get better with them, or without them. And if that really is the best we can do, then DeMar getting paid $20+ M per year is not probably not worth it, even under a new $90M cap.

      To address the first part.Well, the offense has been better this year and where it finishes (with Demar or without Demar) is where it finishes. If it finishes 7th, why is it the 8th or 9th best offense. I don't really understand?

      The second part, a top 10 offense two years in a row is very good. You can win a title with a top 10 offense especially if it has top 6 upside.

      I don't think we should fire or trade people for that especially when we can still acquire players to make it even better.

      Like the argument against DeMar for 20 million is not that the Raptors offense isn't good enough (Because it seems to be), its that he isn't so so essential to it and we can do even better with the cap space without him/defensive reasons.

      But I think looking for greener pastures is a dangerous proposition. Lets stay very good and hope some of our talent pops or we get some free agents or can make trade and become great.

      It seems flawed to get rid of our 2nd best player just because we might be better if he was our third best player?

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      • Jrice9 wrote: View Post
        To address the first part.Well, the offense has been better this year and where it finishes (with Demar or without Demar) is where it finishes. If it finishes 7th, why is it the 8th or 9th best offense. I don't really understand?

        The second part, a top 10 offense two years in a row is very good. You can win a title with a top 10 offense especially if it has top 6 upside.

        I don't think we should fire or trade people for that especially when we can still acquire players to make it even better.

        Like the argument against DeMar for 20 million is not that the Raptors offense isn't good enough (Because it seems to be), its that he isn't so so essential to it and we can do even better with the cap space without him/defensive reasons.

        But I think looking for greener pastures is a dangerous proposition. Lets stay very good and hope some of our talent pops or we get some free agents or can make trade and become great.

        It seems flawed to get rid of our 2nd best player just because we might be better if he was our third best player?
        Bold 1. If we finish 7th the last two seasons worth of data would suggest our talent level is 8/9 with a peak of 7 and a fall of 10.

        Bold 2. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html, http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html, http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2012.html, http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2013.html, http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2014.html
        These are the last 5 NBA champions. All of their offenses (ORTG) were at the very least 11th. Great. We got that down. On the other hand, their defenses (DRTG) didn't slip past 9th. Which means at the very least you have to be top 10 at both. We're not. The only season under Casey we were in the top 10 in both was last year. In fact even when their offenses were top 5, they still had a top 10 defense to boot. So... the defense needs to improve somehow...

        Bold 3. ...And acquiring players might just be what we need to do that... except you need to trade something to get something. Let's agree on one thing, our core is Valanciunas/Lowry/DeRozan, none of those guys are above-average defenders. In terms of DeMar and Kyle, they are what they are. In terms of JV, I'd put the cap on him at being very good, but not elite. So basically, you probably need two more very good defenders, and they should probably be the type that don't bring you down defensively, and those guys are... basically quality starters or all-stars. We don't have a package of assets that we can deal for a player like that. Which means we will need to re-evaluate the core, and possibly deal one of them for somebody who would replace them... OR you implement a new defensive system. Now, we might believe Casey might have this in him. And if he doesn't then...

        4. Basically, if this IS our peak with DeMar, then... we're not a title team as explained in #2, and so he probably isn't worth $20M at least to us.

        5. Yeah, how exactly are you gonna bump DeMar down to 3rd best? We obviously need somebody better than at least Lowry and getting that guy through the draft is out of the question. So Trades and FA are our options. Tradewise to get a player on that level we'll need to trade one of our core pieces in JV/DD/KL... FA wise; there's Durant, maybe Love, maybe Aldridge and then... Durant's a pipedream, there is very tiny chance he comes here, Love isn't great defensively so we get better on O but worse on D + LeBron's LeBron, and Aldridge is probably not moving from Portland according to basically everyone. So... our the best choice? Trade, so trade DD/KL/JV for a #1 option. Go from there.

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        • Well, hold on. Yes, 20M is what I project him to get. No, it is not his max. No, neither is 27M. If the cap is between 85-90M, his max will be between 24M and 25.5M.

          So unless you are willing to risk paying him 25.5M (over 5 years with max raises that actually works out to 29M per year), and be comfortable with 20M+ being his likely payday, you have to move him now.
          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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          • DanH wrote: View Post
            Well, hold on. Yes, 20M is what I project him to get. No, it is not his max. No, neither is 27M. If the cap is between 85-90M, his max will be between 24M and 25.5M.

            So unless you are willing to risk paying him 25.5M (over 5 years with max raises that actually works out to 29M per year), and be comfortable with 20M+ being his likely payday, you have to move him now.
            lol a world where DeMar gets $29M per.

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            • I'll tell you one thing, I'm getting REAL sick of Matt and Leo's non stop defense of Demar. They've never said one thing remotely negative about him.

              First 3 games back: "just amazing how the all star has come back and put up points"
              Next 3 (terrible games): "well obviously it takes a while to come back to form, he's been out for so long and the first 3 games you are just running off of adrenaline"

              Fuck just say it like it is, he stunk there for a week. You don't come back and shoot 50% for a week then all of a sudden the rust hits you a week later. He wasn't driving at all and was just plain missing shots. If you're gonna criticize JV and Ross, I don't understand why DD is immune to it.
              9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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              • Just finished a huge bowl of pho. The idea of paying Demar more than $20m per year makes me want to puke

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                • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                  I'll tell you one thing, I'm getting REAL sick of Matt and Leo's non stop defense of Demar. They've never said one thing remotely negative about him.

                  First 3 games back: "just amazing how the all star has come back and put up points"
                  Next 3 (terrible games): "well obviously it takes a while to come back to form, he's been out for so long and the first 3 games you are just running off of adrenaline"

                  Fuck just say it like it is, he stunk there for a week. You don't come back and shoot 50% for a week then all of a sudden the rust hits you a week later. He wasn't driving at all and was just plain missing shots. If you're gonna criticize JV and Ross, I don't understand why DD is immune to it.
                  Caught a bit of the Philly game rerun today. DeMar misses a 15 ft jumper.

                  Devlin :"That's a shot he usually makes". As if under 40% is usually.

                  Watch the games on cable and always go through stretches where Matt, and sometimes Leo force me to use the mute button.
                  If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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                  • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                    Caught a bit of the Philly game rerun today. DeMar misses a 15 ft jumper.

                    Devlin :"That's a shot he usually makes". As if under 40% is usually.

                    Watch the games on cable and always go through stretches where Matt, and sometimes Leo force me to use the mute button.
                    Exactly.

                    Also, Jack Armstrong is a million times more likeable than Leo, and a lot better at telling it like it is. No idea why Leo is still the sportsnet guy, just sit him on the halftime panel and be done with it.
                    9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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                    • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                      I'll tell you one thing, I'm getting REAL sick of Matt and Leo's non stop defense of Demar. They've never said one thing remotely negative about him.

                      First 3 games back: "just amazing how the all star has come back and put up points"
                      Next 3 (terrible games): "well obviously it takes a while to come back to form, he's been out for so long and the first 3 games you are just running off of adrenaline"

                      Fuck just say it like it is, he stunk there for a week. You don't come back and shoot 50% for a week then all of a sudden the rust hits you a week later. He wasn't driving at all and was just plain missing shots. If you're gonna criticize JV and Ross, I don't understand why DD is immune to it.
                      My biggest complaint about Matt & Leo the past few games is their non-stop commenting about how every shot is a shot they normally make, even contested deep 3's with 18+ seconds on the shot-clock, while fading away in a close game. If you listened to them, you'd think that the Raptors were shooting 90%+ during their hot start to the season... just ridiculous and not limited to DeRozan (though I'm not disagreeing with your observation at all).

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                      • I love Demar. I'm trying to convince my wife to name our first-born child Demar, but she doesn't want her to be teased.

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                        • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                          My biggest complaint about Matt & Leo the past few games is their non-stop commenting about how every shot is a shot they normally make, even contested deep 3's with 18+ seconds on the shot-clock, while fading away in a close game. If you listened to them, you'd think that the Raptors were shooting 90%+ during their hot start to the season... just ridiculous and not limited to DeRozan (though I'm not disagreeing with your observation at all).
                          I thought exactly the same thing during the Detroit game.

                          If the Raptors do end up shooting close to 50% for a game, it's in spite of the shot selection, not because of it. More disciplined shooting off more ball movement should mean even more efficient offense. Not sure why everybody's happy to settle for what are fundamentally and statistically lower percentage shots. You can say "That's our game" and "We know we can score" as much as you want - doesn't make it right.

                          Still, in spite of the gripes about the offense, bigger issue is still the defense. How many times in the first half against Philly did the Raps leave their best 3 pt shooter wide open behind the arc while two guys ran at the same Sixer in the corner off a screwed up rotation. And for ffs why did DJ Augustin get layups for an entire game.
                          "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                          • bryan colangelo wrote: View Post
                            I love Demar. I'm trying to convince my wife to name our first-born child Demar, but she doesn't want her to be teased.
                            Try "Bryanna".....you will always remember....even when you stop posting or change your nick.

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                            • Bendit wrote: View Post
                              Try "Bryanna".....you will always remember....even when you stop posting or change your nick.
                              Bryanna is a nice future stripper name.

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                              • DeMarsha DeRoza?

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