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  • Demar Trade Options

    Usually I avoid the trade proposal game, but it's a lazy afternoon.

    So, in one of the recent threads, someone commented to the effect that moving Demar at $10M is harder than $20M, because good players don't make $10M, so fair value would be hard to achieve. So here is a couple of trade offers that I would seriously look long and hard at in the off-season:

    To Charlotte for Lance Stephenson and Noah Vonleh
    First off, I am a HUGE supporter of Vonleh. Think the kid will be a STAR in this league. He is an athletic big with a great motor, great work ethic and projects to be able to hit perimeter shots. Honestly, everything about the kid screams Kevin Love or Chris Bosh to me.

    Stephenson is a buy low option at this point. As great as he was with the Pacers, he's been equally disappointing in Charlotte, but he still offers a very enticing skill set. A ball handler at the SG/SF position, who can hit treys and defend on the perimeter. That is a skill set we need more of.

    So while Lance is a risk, the big reward here is Vonleh. Vonleh would be the PF of the future (hopefully we could bring Amir back on a discount to offer a mentor for another year before Vonleh takes over the year after). Lance would give us a good ball handler and shooter who defends. He would take Demar's spot in the starting lineup immediately.

    Lance's contract is $9M next season, and has a Team Option the year after at $9.4M. So if he doesn't work out, it's a 1 year deal and then more cap space in the Summer of Durant. If he does work out, $9.4M is an easy option to pick up.

    Why would Charlotte do it:
    They are tired of lottery picks and want to be in the playoffs. Moving a disappointing player and a prospect (who is currently competing with several other lottery picked bigs on the depth chart) for a more accomplished player makes sense for a team looking to firmly get into the playoffs consistently. They still have young prospects and players like MKG, Kemba Walker, Cody Zeller and PJ Hairston. Getting a "prime" player makes sense for them.

    To Boston for Avery Bradley and Kelly Olynyk
    2 young players. Olynyk has all the tools to develop into a really nice offensive big man. Masai said he wants to add a Canadian to the roster, and Olynyk might be the best option (until Wiggins is a free agent in 7+ years). He's a good passer and has good range. Would be a challenge to play with with JV, but it's an experiment worth consideration. Olynyk has only logged 11% of his minutes this year at PF (and none last year), so the defence would be a challenge, but his perimeter/high post game would work very well with JV on offence.

    Bradley offers a lot of the same skills that Lance has, ball handling, perimeter shooting, and defence. Bradley is smaller than Lance and is more of a PG/SG (as opposed to Lance SG/SF), but has always played off the ball in Boston with either Rondo, Smart or Thomas. Bradley is on a 4 year deal worth between $7M-$8.8M.

    Why would Boston do it: Much like Charlotte, Boston has a beavy of young talent. They already proved to be willing to take on "win now" players when they acquired Isaiah Thomas. With Thomas, Smart and Bradley, they have a lot of talent in the back-court, but all are small. DD would give them some size in the back-court. Brad Stevens has already proven he can make more from less, so adding a bit of talent to their roster likely makes them a playoff team next year. They still have Marcus Smart, Tyler Zeller as foundation pieces. DD would take Evan Turner's minutes (played 35 MPG last game) and would likely make Turner expendable in another trade.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

  • #2
    I would definitely consider the Charlotte one, especially if we can also sign a quality role playing wing in the offseason like Middleton.

    Not too big on the Boston one. Bradley is an undersized 3&D shooting guard. He doesn't have near the creativity or versatility (partly because of size) of Stephenson. Don't think Olynyk fits that well in any way other than O, but he'd fit in most places offensively. Doesn't do enough other things for me and could actually fit very badly next to JV or Pat defensively.

    Stephenson's a nutcase and I probably wouldn't consider him a long-term piece, but I see Vonleh's potential as very valuable. The key in these deals to me is whether you get a piece that could become more valuable than DeMar. I see that with the Charlotte deal and Vonleh, but not with the Boston one. Maybe if you can go for picks from them, given their ridiculous glut of 1st rounders over the next few years, but I don't know if any pick you get back would be high enough to be worth giving up DeMar for, or comparable in value to Vonleh.

    I've thought of the Charlotte deal before, but really don't particularly want Stephenson around this team. There might be other ways to work something out, or make it a 3-team deal where Lance goes somewhere else.

    Comment


    • #3
      white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      I would definitely consider the Charlotte one, especially if we can also sign a quality role playing wing in the offseason like Middleton.

      Not too big on the Boston one. Bradley is an undersized 3&D shooting guard. He doesn't have near the creativity or versatility (partly because of size) of Stephenson. Don't think Olynyk fits that well in any way other than O, but he'd fit in most places offensively. Doesn't do enough other things for me and could actually fit very badly next to JV or Pat defensively.

      Stephenson's a nutcase and I probably wouldn't consider him a long-term piece, but I see Vonleh's potential as very valuable. The key in these deals to me is whether you get a piece that could become more valuable than DeMar. I see that with the Charlotte deal and Vonleh, but not with the Boston one. Maybe if you can go for picks from them, given their ridiculous glut of 1st rounders over the next few years, but I don't know if any pick you get back would be high enough to be worth giving up DeMar for, or comparable in value to Vonleh.

      I've thought of the Charlotte deal before, but really don't particularly want Stephenson around this team. There might be other ways to work something out, or make it a 3-team deal where Lance goes somewhere else.
      Of the two, Charlotte would be my preference due to Vonleh.

      I like Bradley, and think he would be a decent option to plug in right away. If we wanted to be a strong defensive team, a starting lineup of Lowry, Bradley, Ross/JJ, Amir, & JV is pretty damn good. Bradley is a good outside threat to, so pairing him with JJ and Lowry would open up space for JJ to work inside.

      I agree, Lance isn't the ideal end-all, but as a buy-low option, he's a nut case I'd take if it gets me Vonleh. Flipping Lance is certainly an option. Perhaps a S&T with Milwaukee for Middleton is an option. Lance would be better for them than OJ Mayo is. Lance is also a player I'd consider testing with teams like Chicago (for Taj) or heck, I'd even check Boston for Bradley at that point.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Axel wrote: View Post
        Of the two, Charlotte would be my preference due to Vonleh.

        I like Bradley, and think he would be a decent option to plug in right away. If we wanted to be a strong defensive team, a starting lineup of Lowry, Bradley, Ross/JJ, Amir, & JV is pretty damn good. Bradley is a good outside threat to, so pairing him with JJ and Lowry would open up space for JJ to work inside.


        I agree, Lance isn't the ideal end-all, but as a buy-low option, he's a nut case I'd take if it gets me Vonleh. Flipping Lance is certainly an option. Perhaps a S&T with Milwaukee for Middleton is an option. Lance would be better for them than OJ Mayo is. Lance is also a player I'd consider testing with teams like Chicago (for Taj) or heck, I'd even check Boston for Bradley at that point.
        There are issues I have with Bradley, which I've already mentioned a bit. I don't like undersized players very much. At SG, while he defends well, he's not very big. And you can put him on PGs defensively, but then where do you put your PG? Especially a fairly short guy like Lowry?

        It's a nice blend of skills in that rotation, but there are non-skills angles that I don't like. One of the other big things being Bradley's durability. He's been healthy this year, but so far he's been the kind of guy who seems to always miss a fair chunk of games every season. Yeah, can't say I'd really like the Boston deal.

        Comment


        • #5
          Would Masai even consider trading for a guy like Lance? Even on a one year deal? Seems risky. Basically it would be DD for Vonleh which would I guess makes sense but I think we can do better.

          I really like MKG. Even though he can't shoot.. he's a great defender and plays balls out.. So if the Raps could move DD for Vonleh and MKG instead of Lance, then I'd be all for it. And grabbing Lance just to flip him won't really work otherwise Charlotte would have already moved him.


          As for the Boston deal.. don't care much for Olynyk, but Bradley's the type of off guard that I think would be great next to Lowry. Maybe swap Olynyk for one or two of Boston's many picks and then we can talk.

          Comment


          • #6
            In for the Charlotte trade. Not the biggest lance fan, but i do like the defence and relentlessness he brings to the wing positions (referring to the Pacers version of him, not this bum ass charlotte version...the right coach will set him straight). The real prize here is Vonleh. I remember watching him in his college days and thinking wow this guy can be something really special in the association. Pains me to see all that potential rotting away on the bench in charlotte. If he can get anywhere near his ceiling, I feel like he could seriously be the PF for the future of this team, with 2Pat being the backup PF.

            Comment


            • #7
              GinobilisBaldSpot wrote: View Post
              In for the Charlotte trade. Not the biggest lance fan, but i do like the defence and relentlessness he brings to the wing positions (referring to the Pacers version of him, not this bum ass charlotte version...the right coach will set him straight). The real prize here is Vonleh. I remember watching him in his college days and thinking wow this guy can be something really special in the association. Pains me to see all that potential rotting away on the bench in charlotte. If he can get anywhere near his ceiling, I feel like he could seriously be the PF for the future of this team, with 2Pat being the backup PF.
              The Pacers version of him was only good for one season (though of course he took a couple years to develop). They had issues getting the best out of him with a decent coach and the constant supervision of Larry Legend. Seems like Lance is just one of those guys who is unpredictable and hard to consistently get the best out of. I'd have no expectation that he becomes a solid contributor here. It'd be great, but basically no outcome would surprise me.

              Comment


              • #8
                white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                The Pacers version of him was only good for one season (though of course he took a couple years to develop). They had issues getting the best out of him with a decent coach and the constant supervision of Larry Legend. Seems like Lance is just one of those guys who is unpredictable and hard to consistently get the best out of. I'd have no expectation that he becomes a solid contributor here. It'd be great, but basically no outcome would surprise me.
                Lance hasn't fit in in Charlotte partially because he is a tyreke evans sort of guard. He is good when he has the ball a lot to make plays. In Charlotte he was supposed to be a spot up shooter and he is terrible at that. I'm a fan of the Charlotte option, but i dont think they would consider trading MKG (too important for their defense).

                Other possible options are the Pacers and the Kings. The Pacers could use a player like DD and they will probably have a lottery pick. I also like to think that the Kings would give up their lottery pick easily, but I don't think they are that stupid.

                Charlotte seems like the most likely target.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Axel wrote: View Post
                  Usually I avoid the trade proposal game, but it's a lazy afternoon.

                  So, in one of the recent threads, someone commented to the effect that moving Demar at $10M is harder than $20M, because good players don't make $10M, so fair value would be hard to achieve. So here is a couple of trade offers that I would seriously look long and hard at in the off-season:

                  To Charlotte for Lance Stephenson and Noah Vonleh
                  I like this trade. However it may be hard to pry Vonleh from them, their pick from this year may be as easily attained however

                  Another option is Detroit:

                  DD for Meeks, Butler and a protected 1st (top 5 2015, top 3 2016).

                  Not ideal, but I like what Meeks brings and a high pick could be nice.

                  Or Boston:

                  DD for Wallace + 2015 1st from Dallas + 2017 1st round pick swap from Brooklyn + 2016 second round pick from Cleveland

                  I quite like this trade.....

                  Overall there aren't a lot of trade partners for DD. He just doesn't have a good combo of value/contact to pull in anything great, via picks or players...Though I think the best bet is to get picks for him, and Boston may be the best avenue for that.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Is there a rule in the CBA that teams cannot give away first round picks in consecutive drafts? Pretty sure there is a rule like this, not entirely sure tho.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      DogeLover1234 wrote: View Post
                      Is there a rule in the CBA that teams cannot give away first round picks in consecutive drafts? Pretty sure there is a rule like this, not entirely sure tho.
                      You can't trade away your own pick in consecutive seasons. Based on a former Cavs owner who would trade his top pick every year for "ready" talent and work out exactly as one would expect (they lost a lot - he was like the original James Dolan).

                      But if you acquire other teams picks, then those can be flipped no questions asked. You can also trade a player immediately after the draft.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                        I like this trade. However it may be hard to pry Vonleh from them, their pick from this year may be as easily attained however

                        Another option is Detroit:

                        DD for Meeks, Butler and a protected 1st (top 5 2015, top 3 2016).

                        Not ideal, but I like what Meeks brings and a high pick could be nice.

                        Or Boston:

                        DD for Wallace + 2015 1st from Dallas + 2017 1st round pick swap from Brooklyn + 2016 second round pick from Cleveland

                        I quite like this trade.....

                        Overall there aren't a lot of trade partners for DD. He just doesn't have a good combo of value/contact to pull in anything great, via picks or players...Though I think the best bet is to get picks for him, and Boston may be the best avenue for that.
                        I would rather Vonleh than any of those picks. I'm not looking to build a war chest of picks, but rather get an elite prospect. I'd guess Charlotte is 50/50 on the deal. MJ desperately wants to be a playoff team (he could really use the extra revenue) and since they already have a ton of prospects, moving one who rarely sees the court has to be enticing for him.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Axel wrote: View Post
                          You can't trade away your own pick in consecutive seasons. Based on a former Cavs owner who would trade his top pick every year for "ready" talent and work out exactly as one would expect (they lost a lot - he was like the original James Dolan).

                          But if you acquire other teams picks, then those can be flipped no questions asked. You can also trade a player immediately after the draft.
                          Wasn't it a Clips GM who traded away 3-4 1st round picks in a single transaction that was the basis for the rule? Maybe I got the team wrong, but I think the scenario is correct.

                          DogeLover1234 wrote: View Post
                          Is there a rule in the CBA that teams cannot give away first round picks in consecutive drafts? Pretty sure there is a rule like this, not entirely sure tho.
                          You can trade away consecutive 1st round picks, just not in the same season. For example, the Raps can trade away their 2015 1st in the offseason/draft day (or prior to this seasons trade deadline), and then when the 2016 season starts I think they can trade their 2016 first as well.

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                          • #14
                            JawsGT wrote: View Post
                            Wasn't it a Clips GM who traded away 3-4 1st round picks in a single transaction that was the basis for the rule? Maybe I got the team wrong, but I think the scenario is correct.



                            You can trade away consecutive 1st round picks, just not in the same season. For example, the Raps can trade away their 2015 1st in the offseason/draft day (or prior to this seasons trade deadline), and then when the 2016 season starts I think they can trade their 2016 first as well.
                            Ted Stepien. His draft pick trading is how the Lakers got James Worthy. He has been called the worst owner ever (although at the time this was pre-Sterling).

                            He's basically James Dolan / Donald Sterling all rolled into one. Here's his wiki page. Tons of stuff about him if you google though.

                            http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Stepien
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The rule is regarding future picks. So say its July 15, 2015, the Raptors could not trade both their 2016 & 2017 1st round picks in the summer if they wanted to They could only trade one or the other and do a pick swap in the other year. So they could trade their 2016 1st round pick and swap 2017 1st round picks or vice-versa. And the same applies for any consecutive years in the future. Hope this makes sense.

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