Would you rather a first round win or #FireCasey?

[mcHAPPY]

Rooting for them to lose? I answered that I'd prefer a loss and Casey fired, but I'll be cheering for wins full throated. Go Raptors go, kick some butt - but that doesn't change the reality that I'm aware that the long term consequences of a win against some inferior opposition might not be worth it. That awareness doesn't change my ability to be a fan though.

Even when tanking (and we've had a couple tank-ish seasons here) I still cheer for wins in-game. Even if I watch the standings and count the losses as an investment.

Well said.

[Gman]

The premise is that we have to lose before Masai can justify firing Casey. If that's the premise than no question, lose the first round and fire the guy who decimated the chemistry and culture of this team by supporting the star caste system. Fire the guy who made them play a defensive system that they don't have the twitch speed or IQ to play.

[Fully]

Anyone who thought Gay was our best player was not worth listening to.

Hence the quotation marks. But really, who would you have said was our best player through ~20 games last year? Lowry? DeRozan? Everyone was playing bad.

[DanH]

Hence the quotation marks. But really, who would you have said was our best player through ~20 games last year? Lowry? DeRozan? Everyone was playing bad.

Lowry. DD may have been the worst, but he was also the most obviously hurt by Gay's presence. And Amir was fantastic as ever, especially once he got himself away from Gay by requesting a move to the bench.

But my point stands - many posters here were quite aware that the team as it stood was not nearly bad enough to tank, and there were numerous arguments over whether the wins cost was worth waiting to see peak value for Lowry, DD etc, or whether we should take the first deal to come along so we could lose enough for a top pick.

[golden]

Lowry. DD may have been the worst, but he was also the most obviously hurt by Gay's presence. And Amir was fantastic as ever, especially once he got himself away from Gay by requesting a move to the bench.

But my point stands - many posters here were quite aware that the team as it stood was not nearly bad enough to tank, and there were numerous arguments over whether the wins cost was worth waiting to see peak value for Lowry, DD etc, or whether we should take the first deal to come along so we could lose enough for a top pick.

Actually, I think most people around here, as well as the mainstream media thought we were in tank mode after the Gay trade. Remember that hilarious "Open letter to Masai", which he read apparently, after which there were cheers of joy following the Gay trade that the fans prayers were answered. The Lowry-Knicks deal was actually the key to tanking (confirmed by Weltman), but we all know what happened after that.

Looking back, I think that increasing the trade value in the overall roster, e.g. Lowry and DD was the right move. Last year's draft was vastly overrated, and even a team that tanked as hard as any team ever has (Philly), couldn't get there hands on the only player who was worth it, maybe (Wiggins).

Conversely, Lowry is now firmly established as an elite PG in the prime of his career on a team-friendly contract with the cap increasing. IMO, Lowry is our best trade asset to acquire a top 5 pick if we chose to go that route. There have been debates about trading DD in the off-season, but I think that Lowry is the one who should be traded while his value is at the peak.

The other reason I think we should trade Lowry is because his playing style and attitude is also not necessarily conducive to making other players around him better. Casey has basically had to acquiesce to Lowry's desire to have more control of the team style of play, to get his best efforts, rather than butt heads like every other coach Lowry has played for. Long term, this is not good for the team culture.

[Not Too Xabi]

Fire Casey.

[white men can't jump]

Actually, I think most people around here, as well as the mainstream media thought we were in tank mode after the Gay trade. Remember that hilarious "Open letter to Masai", which he read apparently, after which there were cheers of joy following the Gay trade that the fans prayers were answered. The Lowry-Knicks deal was actually the key to tanking (confirmed by Weltman), but we all know what happened after that.

Looking back, I think that increasing the trade value in the overall roster, e.g. Lowry and DD was the right move. Last year's draft was vastly overrated, and even a team that tanked as hard as any team ever has (Philly), couldn't get there hands on the only player who was worth it, maybe (Wiggins).

Conversely, Lowry is now firmly established as an elite PG in the prime of his career on a team-friendly contract with the cap increasing. IMO, Lowry is our best trade asset to acquire a top 5 pick if we chose to go that route. There have been debates about trading DD in the off-season, but I think that Lowry is the one who should be traded while his value is at the peak.

The other reason I think we should trade Lowry is because his playing style and attitude is also not necessarily conducive to making other players around him better. Casey has basically had to acquiesce to Lowry's desire to have more control of the team style of play, to get his best efforts, rather than butt heads like every other coach Lowry has played for. Long term, this is not good for the team culture.

Some interesting thoughts on Lowry's value and position on this team. I might be down with a bold move of trading him to hopefully get a home run pick. If his value is that high, it could be the best chance for this team to add a top tier talent.

[Joey]

Rooting for them to lose? I answered that I'd prefer a loss and Casey fired, but I'll be cheering for wins full throated. Go Raptors go, kick some butt - but that doesn't change the reality that I'm aware that the long term consequences of a win against some inferior opposition might not be worth it. That awareness doesn't change my ability to be a fan though.

But what makes you think Masai will be any more impressed by that than we are? This is what I don't understand.
Only in the last few years alone have 2 coaches both been fired, regardless of the perceived "success" their team may have had.

[Joey]

Ultimately, I'm in the "Option #3" boat, of we win and Masai still sees the benefits to bringing in a new Voice.

[Fully]

Lowry. DD may have been the worst, but he was also the most obviously hurt by Gay's presence. And Amir was fantastic as ever, especially once he got himself away from Gay by requesting a move to the bench.

But my point stands - many posters here were quite aware that the team as it stood was not nearly bad enough to tank, and there were numerous arguments over whether the wins cost was worth waiting to see peak value for Lowry, DD etc, or whether we should take the first deal to come along so we could lose enough for a top pick.

The team was 6-12 at the time of the trade, already one of the worst records in the league, and was assumed to be getting worse. Yes, there were conversations on moving guys like DD/Lowry/Amir to help the chances in the race to the bottom but they weren't considered major dominoes that needed to fall in order for the team to suck… they already did. I feel like we're just talking in circles anyway - if the team's best player during a 6-12 start was arguably Amir Johnson then yes, we were probably not very good.

[JawsGT]

Ultimately, I'm in the "Option #3" boat, of we win and Masai still sees the benefits to bringing in a new Voice.

Yeah, I don't think a 1st round win guarantees MU keeps him around. More likely, of course, but no guarantee.

[DanH]

Ultimately, I'm in the "Option #3" boat, of we win and Masai still sees the benefits to bringing in a new Voice.

Obviously this is the ideal. And I would like to think (and do believe, but have no way of knowing) that Masai would take that course regardless.

But I think the question is posed to judge priorities rather than to suggest these are the only realistic options. The question forces one to make a choice. This makes the answers more interesting and more meaningful. Anyone can choose the third option of winning and getting a better coach, and anyone would know to avoid the option of losing and keeping Casey and the inevitable riots that would ensue.

So, hypothetically, if those were the two choices, which would you choose?

[DanH]

The team was 6-12 at the time of the trade, already one of the worst records in the league, and was assumed to be getting worse. Yes, there were conversations on moving guys like DD/Lowry/Amir to help the chances in the race to the bottom but they weren't considered major dominoes that needed to fall in order for the team to suck… they already did. I feel like we're just talking in circles anyway - if the team's best player during a 6-12 start was arguably Amir Johnson then yes, we were probably not very good.

We were not very good. We were going to win 30-odd games, in my estimation, maybe up to the high 30's if JV and Ross proved ready for bigger roles. Keep in mind those first 18 games were by far the most brutal stretch of our schedule that year - so although the 6-12 record was frustrating, it was not indicative of the record we would have finished with. Adjusted for strength of schedule we were still on pace to be a borderline playoff team, as many had predicted before the season. Even with how unwatchable the team was, and with all the chucking.

But 30 something wins is not tanking territory. That's 10th pick territory - the dreaded middle ground of a non-elite pick and no chance of winning anything meaningful. Moving Gay signalled to me and many others that management had decided this core and team were not good enough. And the obvious next step (to me and some others) was to move Lowry, Amir and possibly others for the best futures return and by removing the key pieces to winning (Lowry, Amir, DD if he was moved) we would THEN be on a path to tank.

If anyone assumed the removal of Gay would change much by itself (in a negative way) or that the team was terrible when he was traded (they were bad, and going through a very rough stretch, but not terrible) then I disagree with those people. Obviously the removal of Gay (and addition of depth, fit and chemistry) made a big difference and a positive one, but it didn't transform a tanking team into a competitor. It transformed a mediocre-poor team that was going to be in that 10th ish position into a good team (read: middle of the pack in the Eastern playoffs).

[DogeLover1234]

Lol the talent on the team is soo shitty. There's a reason everyone around the league thought this was a tanking roster when gay was traded.

He near maximized the roster to talent. The problem with him is his inability to adapt, shitty coaching decisions and late game ISOs. However he has done pretty well with the talent he was given.

If thos is true then why do people think that guys like DD and lowry would be better in a different system? Also from the research others have done and posted in the forums it seems like most of the players are having down years.

[DogeLover1234]

If a team has two allstars in DD and Lowry, a rising star in JV, soxth man of the year candidate in lou will and more good role players they should be better than this raptors team. Im confused how some of you think there isnt talent on this roster... Every team in the league wants a stretch four like pat. Amir is solid right now. Even ross had hogh expectations at the start of the year, casey certainly hasnt helped him develop.