Would you rather a first round win or #FireCasey?

[CalgaryRapsFan]

It's basically a form of the tanking debate all over again. That is, those in favour of a 1st round loss believe that short term pain will result in long term gain.

I was pro-rebuild and support #firecasey but, once the playoffs start, I root for the Raps to win and keep on winning.

I have faith that MU is smart enough to be able to differentiate between 'winning because of Casey' and 'winning in spite of Casey', and that DC will ultimately get replaced, regardless of whether or not they get out of the first round. This past offseason, MU spoke about last year's unexpected success being a starting point, not a final result to be happy with. Leading up to the trade deadline, MU acknowledged the ineptitude of the EC, and even refused to go all-in to win now, preferring to play the long game. Witnessing this team play sub-500 ball after their hot start, and potentially watching them win a 1st round series against Washington/Milwaukee, can't be enough to blind MU to the reality of the team's struggles. With so many expiring contracts, young players and upcoming picks, there's just no way that this team stays in tact, starting with the coaching staff.

[Nilanka]

I was pro-rebuild and support #firecasey but, once the playoffs start, I root for the Raps to win and keep on winning.

I have faith that MU is smart enough to be able to differentiate between 'winning because of Casey' and 'winning in spite of Casey', and that DC will ultimately get replaced, regardless of whether or not they get out of the first round. This past offseason, MU spoke about last year's unexpected success being a starting point, not a final result to be happy with. Leading up to the trade deadline, MU acknowledged the ineptitude of the EC, and even refused to go all-in to win now, preferring to play the long game. Witnessing this team play sub-500 ball after their hot start, and potentially watching them win a 1st round series against Washington/Milwaukee, can't be enough to blind MU to the reality of the team's struggles. With so many expiring contracts, young players and upcoming picks, there's just no way that this team stays in tact, starting with the coaching staff.

I want to have the same faith in MU, but at this point, I'm not sure if he'd be willing to make the difficult, yet necessary move of firing Casey (unless the choice is made easy with a 1st round loss).

He strikes me as someone unwilling to rock the boat too much.

[Axel]

I just want to watch enjoyable basketball again....

[Mediumcore]

It's basically a form of the tanking debate all over again. That is, those in favour of a 1st round loss believe that short term pain will result in long term gain.

It's funny you mentioned the tanking debate because I was thinking about a thread I started back then asking if all the pro tankers were actually willing to live through what a real tank is, and not just caught up in the hype of what everyone was saying. Most said they would live through a real tank and the number of years you would have to do it in order to get the talent where you actually could one day be a contender.

When I look at the team now and see the reaction in the forum to a team that is clearly improved, but going through the hardships of learning how to change their culture it seems like a lot of the people really aren't willing to go through the "pain" portion of the equation. I know Casey isn't a great coach, but he is helping to build a culture of hard work and defense. I think you need consistency and commitment to build that.

[Axel]

It's funny you mentioned the tanking debate because I was thinking about a thread I started back then asking if all the pro tankers were actually willing to live through what a real tank is, and not just caught up in the hype of what everyone was saying. Most said they would live through a real tank and the number of years you would have to do it in order to get the talent where you actually could one day be a contender.

When I look at the team now and see the reaction in the forum to a team that is clearly improved, but going through the hardships of learning how to change their culture it seems like a lot of the people really aren't willing to go through the "pain" portion of the equation. I know Casey isn't a great coach, but he is helping to build a culture of hard work and defense. I think you need consistency and commitment to build that.

Really? I haven't seen this team play much defence this season. Hard work is pretty hard to gauge, but if you are working on the wrong skills (ISO offence), then it's not particularly good for the team. Plus work ethic is something most players either had or didn't before joining the Raps. Players are as big an impact there as coaches in creating a work ethic culture.

[Mediumcore]

Really? I haven't seen this team play much defence this season. Hard work is pretty hard to gauge, but if you are working on the wrong skills (ISO offence), then it's not particularly good for the team. Plus work ethic is something most players either had or didn't before joining the Raps. Players are as big an impact there as coaches in creating a work ethic culture.

I agree, the defense has been poor with the exception of the start of this season and last season, and that's what I mean about Casey having been able to implement a good defensive system (at one point) and that the team is going through the hardship of learning how to play hard every game, every posession. They aren't doing that anymore, but it's not because of there is something wrong with the system.

[raptors999]

I agree, the defense has been poor with the exception of the start of this season and last season, and that's what I mean about Casey having been able to implement a good defensive system (at one point) and that the team is going through the hardship of learning how to play hard every game, every posession. They aren't doing that anymore, but it's not because of there is something wrong with the system.

He isn't a new coach, he has had more than enough time to implement his system.

[Jrice9]

Rooting for them to lose? I answered that I'd prefer a loss and Casey fired, but I'll be cheering for wins full throated. Go Raptors go, kick some butt - but that doesn't change the reality that I'm aware that the long term consequences of a win against some inferior opposition might not be worth it. That awareness doesn't change my ability to be a fan though.

Even when tanking (and we've had a couple tank-ish seasons here) I still cheer for wins in-game. Even if I watch the standings and count the losses as an investment.

The problem I have with this is that if you have this mentality you are still happy when they lose. Unlike tanking where winning the team is winning meaningless regular games isn't necessary a positive, we are talking about playoff games that inherently matter in sports.

It seems just fundamentally wrong to me that someone can be secretly happy if the team is losing in the playoffs.

If you aren't happy then you don't prefer the option, no?

[KeonClark]

He brings up a good point though, yall were tough talking about a 5 year tank being no thing, and now the team has had a sub .500 stretch and everybodys dreading playoff ball like they're waiting in line to get into auschwitz

[JimiCliff]

The problem I have with this is that if you have this mentality you are still happy when they lose. Unlike tanking where winning the team is winning meaningless regular games isn't necessary a positive, we are talking about playoff games that inherently matter in sports.

It seems just fundamentally wrong to me that someone can be secretly happy if the team is losing in the playoffs.

If you aren't happy then you don't prefer the option, no?

Sorry, but that's the way the NBA's set things up. There is a strong incentive to lose. There's nothing wrong with understanding this and getting behind it.

But I do wish they'd change the rule. I wish that there was no reward for being bad, because the quality and inventiveness of the basketball on the court could only go up.

[tDotted]

I just want to watch enjoyable basketball again....

[Primer]

I want Casey fired extremely badly. I'll be very distraught if he's retained in the offseason. Despite this, I never root against the Raptors. I watch every game cheering every made basket, I get excited when our players are having a good game, and I get upset when we lose. You'll often see me in the game thread going "oh shit, the wheels are coming off" when we blow a game in the 4th quarter. It's infuriating to see a team you root for so hard implode game after game because of stupid coaching.

Basically, if we lose in the 1st round, I'm gonna feel like crap, but I'll be somewhat cheered up if they fire Casey afterwards. My absolute nightmare scenario is we lose in the 1st round and still retain Casey. My dream scenario is Casey all of a sudden becomes a good coach and we dominate the playoffs. Awkward time to be a Raptors fan.

[KeonClark]

I want Casey fired extremely badly. I'll be very distraught if he's retained in the offseason. Despite this, I never root against the Raptors. I watch every game cheering every made basket, I get excited when our players are having a good game, and I get upset when we lose. You'll often see me in the game thread going "oh shit, the wheels are coming off" when we blow a game in the 4th quarter. It's infuriating to see a team you root for so hard implode game after game because of stupid coaching.

Basically, if we lose in the 1st round, I'm gonna feel like crap, but I'll be somewhat cheered up if they fire Casey afterwards. My absolute nightmare scenario is we lose in the 1st round and still retain Casey. My dream scenario is Casey all of a sudden becomes a good coach and we dominate the playoffs. Awkward time to be a Raptors fan.

You said it absolutely perfect. This poll is awkward and has no right choice. I think if this post option c, we'd all be on board.

[Jrice9]

Sorry, but that's the way the NBA's set things up. There is a strong incentive to lose. There's nothing wrong with understanding this and getting behind it.

But I do wish they'd change the rule. I wish that there was no reward for being bad, because the quality and inventiveness of the basketball on the court could only go up.

No I'm not against tanking in principle (though I agree that the system should be changed to simply a non playoff team equal lottery) what I'm against is fans having a tanking mentality while there team is in the playoffs. There is no clear strategic imperative to intentionally wanting your team to lose in the playoffs at all.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

He brings up a good point though, yall were tough talking about a 5 year tank being no thing, and now the team has had a sub .500 stretch and everybodys dreading playoff ball like they're waiting in line to get into auschwitz

Living through a rebuild would have been acceptable if:

1. a top-5 draft pick was added
2. additional prospects and/or draft picks were added, by cashing in spare parts
3. a new coach was brought in whose priority was developing young talent, not trying to win now or balance competing priorities

Since none of the above happened, the suffering is made that much more painful. lol