Is Tanking An Option?

[Jrice9]

He isn't good or great.

He is developing.

You only need to look at his physical tools and watch him shoot jumpers to see the potential.

I am not sure if it ever gets reached but you don't kick a 19 year kid to the curb with his tools.

The only player currently in the top 10 on DraftExpress mock 2015 draft who is 6 months or younger than Bruno is Stanley Johnson who is 8 months younger. Towns and Okafor are less than 2 and 3 months younger.

I agree the only thing I would add is that I would trade him in a package for a true impact player. If he was the difference in some Boogie trade (JV+20+Knicks Pick maybe Lowry) Id throw him in

[mcHAPPY]

There are only so many star players, and only 3 ways to get them:

1/ Intentionally lose and get the top draft pick in a good draft year.
2/ Have better scouts than everyone (See Steph Curry, Kahwi Leanord)
3/ Free agency

It's not that I disagree with you, but there are no quick fixes.

Low player turnover isn't something good teams do over 1 season. It's something they do over multiple. This year should be seen as a set back, not a snap reason to overhaul the whole thing. Look at the teams that succeed. Minus the Heat (who used collusion), and the Celtics (who stockpiled talent and traded for vets), these teams have been together for years. The Pistons took years to get their title, same for the Mavs. (EDIT)Heck, the Spurs are basically the same team from 5 years ago (replacing guys as they retire). I just dissed the Heat, but that nucleus with Haslem, Birdman, Wade were all part of the first title. This isn't a sprint, it's a marathon.

As much as it pains me to say this, James Johnson is not an NBA starter. 80 games into a season a starter doesn't break defensive assignments. 80+ games into a season a starter does not rush things on the offensive side, instead of letting the game come to him. Maybe, if Casey gave him more minutes (he deserved more minutes than he got) he could have grown into that position, but I can only assess the player that currently exists.

In the next round, the Wizards are unlikely to beat the Hawks. Wall is amazing. But you over emphasize the gap between him and Lowry. Furthermore, the gap between Lowry and the lower 20 starting point guards in the NBA is a much wider gap. If the Hawks lose to the Wiz, and it's on the back of Wall you can gloat at my expense, but look at the Hawks. No star. Basically the same team for 2 years. Most of that roster has been with Atlanta for twice as long. All they did was replace a malcontent starter (at 1 point, people thought Josh Smith was a star) with a more efficient player, and added a better coach.

Marathon, not a sprint.

You can also trade for a star player.

I'm not looking for a quick fix.

The marathon comment is interesting. It seems to me the sprint right now is keeping this core and making some minor adjustments. The only way this team is going to take the next step is an infusion of elite talent. I keep pointing to Wall. His impact on the game is incredible. The Raptors don't have anything near that. Also, Wall impacts the game on BOTH sides of teh ball. Another thing the Raptors are lacking. Yes, the gap between Wall and Lowry is that big and Wall is only 24.


Raptors need to start over. They need to build through the draft or trade for rookie contract players. The rookie contract lets you build something as you have control over that player for up to 9 years. I can foresee a situation brewing just like Aldridge/Portland with DeMar. DeMar loves Toronto and all that jazz. But when the time comes to commit again, the doubts come creeping out of the shadows of his mind. And you know what? That is his choice. He will have earned the right to be an UFA and go where ever he desires. You can't build with what you don't have control over. That is the marathon I speak of. I'm talking build this thing from the foundation right up.

The management is in place.
Next get the coach.
Then address the roster.


I commend Masai for seeing BC's vision through and tweaking where necessary. It just isn't going to cut it. So lets move on.

[mcHAPPY]

I agree the only thing I would add is that I would trade him in a package for a true impact player. If he was the difference in some Boogie trade (JV+20+Knicks Pick maybe Lowry) Id throw him in

The problem is you run the risk of becoming the Knicks in giving away all your assets to build around one player. Striping down to build around one player, especially a player of Cousins' emotional make up, is dangerous because he will not be able to handle the criticism that comes with being the man on a losing team. He will grow frustrated and he will want out. To be fair, most players would.

I'm all about asset accumulation right now, if I was in charge.

Prospects and picks.

Cash out on the prospects when you feel confident you know what you have.

No one really knows what they have in Bruno right now except 7'7" in wingspan.

[peanutwoozle]

You can also trade for a star player.

I'm not looking for a quick fix.

The marathon comment is interesting. It seems to me the sprint right now is keeping this core and making some minor adjustments. The only way this team is going to take the next step is an infusion of elite talent. I keep pointing to Wall. His impact on the game is incredible. The Raptors don't have anything near that. Also, Wall impacts the game on BOTH sides of teh ball. Another thing the Raptors are lacking. Yes, the gap between Wall and Lowry is that big and Wall is only 24.


Raptors need to start over. They need to build through the draft or trade for rookie contract players. The rookie contract lets you build something as you have control over that player for up to 9 years. I can foresee a situation brewing just like Aldridge/Portland with DeMar. DeMar loves Toronto and all that jazz. But when the time comes to commit again, the doubts come creeping out of the shadows of his mind. And you know what? That is his choice. He will have earned the right to be an UFA and go where ever he desires. You can't build with what you don't have control over. That is the marathon I speak of. I'm talking build this thing from the foundation right up.

The management is in place.
Next get the coach.
Then address the roster.


I commend Masai for seeing BC's vision through and tweaking where necessary. It just isn't going to cut it. So lets move on.

Isn't Masai one of BC's, if so, shouldn't he go too then?

[blackjitsu]

You can also trade for a star player.

I'm not looking for a quick fix.

The marathon comment is interesting. It seems to me the sprint right now is keeping this core and making some minor adjustments. The only way this team is going to take the next step is an infusion of elite talent. I keep pointing to Wall. His impact on the game is incredible. The Raptors don't have anything near that. Also, Wall impacts the game on BOTH sides of teh ball. Another thing the Raptors are lacking. Yes, the gap between Wall and Lowry is that big and Wall is only 24.


Raptors need to start over. They need to build through the draft or trade for rookie contract players. The rookie contract lets you build something as you have control over that player for up to 9 years. I can foresee a situation brewing just like Aldridge/Portland with DeMar. DeMar loves Toronto and all that jazz. But when the time comes to commit again, the doubts come creeping out of the shadows of his mind. And you know what? That is his choice. He will have earned the right to be an UFA and go where ever he desires. You can't build with what you don't have control over. That is the marathon I speak of. I'm talking build this thing from the foundation right up.

The management is in place.
Next get the coach.
Then address the roster.


I commend Masai for seeing BC's vision through and tweaking where necessary. It just isn't going to cut it. So lets move on.

Great post McHappy. This gives me a lot to think about.

[Cody73]

We should we rebuild?

You do realize we have 2 All-Stars, a promising young C and SF in JV and Bruno, and one of the best benches in the League, right?

Not only that, but we do have chemistry and depth at some spots. What we need to upgrade is the 3 and 4. Bruno's gonna be ready in 2-3 years, so a vet at SF would be ideal. As for PF, we can either address that also in FA or via the draft this year.

I have no doubt that this team has what it takes to be a true contender. Ya'll need to relax a little. Do you really wanna go through another Bosh/Bargnani situation?

I'd rather try our best to get better now while we can. A retool is the most ideal situation for us.

Plus, I'd rather cheer for a winning team than a losing one.

[S.R.]

The DeDecision is also being underplayed. This was a pretty negative year for the team in the end - they know how roundly they're being criticized, including from the fans. If next year is also bad/underwhelming and the Raps hold onto DeMar, what do you think will happen when he gets a decent offer from a good franchise? I'd say 50/50 he's ready to walk unless they take a Big step forward next year.

Would DeMar ever be interested in watching Lowry be flipped for younger pieces? Would he stick around after another first round exit (or worse)? Does anyone actually want to rush short term progress just to try to make sure DeMar re-signs?

[MixxAOR]

The DeDecision is also being underplayed. This was a pretty negative year for the team in the end - they know how roundly they're being criticized, including from the fans. If next year is also bad/underwhelming and the Raps hold onto DeMar, what do you think will happen when he gets a decent offer from a good franchise? I'd say 50/50 he's ready to walk unless they take a Big step forward next year.

Would DeMar ever be interested in watching Lowry be flipped for younger pieces? Would he stick around after another first round exit (or worse)? Does anyone actually want to rush short term progress just to try to make sure DeMar re-signs?

That's why we need to trade Derozan before he can make that decision.

[peanutwoozle]

That's why we need to trade Derozan before he can make that decision.

then we should fire our management for failing. We should have fired Bryan Colangelo back in 2010 and keeping him after that was one of the worst decision this franchise ever made.

[Cody73]

The DeDecision is also being underplayed. This was a pretty negative year for the team in the end - they know how roundly they're being criticized, including from the fans. If next year is also bad/underwhelming and the Raps hold onto DeMar, what do you think will happen when he gets a decent offer from a good franchise? I'd say 50/50 he's ready to walk unless they take a Big step forward next year.

Would DeMar ever be interested in watching Lowry be flipped for younger pieces? Would he stick around after another first round exit (or worse)? Does anyone actually want to rush short term progress just to try to make sure DeMar re-signs?

This question intrigues me. I'm all for developing talent, and I think we have some young prospects already here. I loved our draft picks once I found out who Bruno was.

I feel right now player development is just as important to this team as is leadership. We do not have a true leader in this locker room. Nor do we have a coach that's willing to see the issues with his team. His thought process is this: "Let em shoot the dang ball as much as they want. If we don't make em, fuck the fans".

We all want Casey gone, and I think Dero will stay here if we get past the 1st round next year. We don't need that much to make that push.

[DogeLover1234]

No, I don't think low turnover and good coaching solves everything. I'm looking at history, and using math. The path that is most likely to lead to success in the NBA is good coaching and low player turnover. It's not tanking. Shaq didn't stay in Orlando, he moved to the more stable Lakers for his titles. Houston took years to put that team together. Even the MJ Bulls were not built over night. Is it wrong for me to look at 2 paths: Revolution(tanking), or Evolution (creating a culture with the players you have and slowly building) and believing that the path that has more consistently worked is better?

As far as Teague and Lowry, they're basically in the same tier of point guards. Maybe Teague is a top 7 starting point guard and Lowry is a top 9. The difference between the 2 is kind of small. Neither is in Wall's league.

By no definition is Korver a star. He's a high-end role player. The other thing he is, is an actual starting SF -- something the Raps lack. How many years has Korver been in the league? It's not like dude's ugly. If he was a star, wouldn't he have more endorsements? Where has he ranked on ESPN's top 400 players list the last 5 years. Consistently in the top 30? No (In 2012 he was ranked 183)? He can't take over games by himself. He is dependent on teammates passing him the ball. He struggles in iso...I love his game, but he's not a star.

I'm fine with being wrong. If Wall crushes the Hawks gloat away. If the Sixers, suddenly become better than the Raps next year point and laugh. But history, and math seem far more compelling to me than (what appears to me to be) rash reasoning.

I don't think I explained my point well enough earlier. Continuity and coaching alone don't win championships, you also need exceptional players. Since the 1999 championship every finals has included at least one of Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Shaq, of Tim Duncan. The Raps don't have anyone on those guys levels so we need to get one. Continuity wont get us one.

[raptors999]

I don't think I explained my point well enough earlier. Continuity and coaching alone don't win championships, you also need exceptional players. Since the 1999 championship every finals has included at least one of Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Shaq, of Tim Duncan. The Raps don't have anyone on those guys levels so we need to get one. Continuity wont get us one.

Basketball has changed since 1999.

[JawsGT]

We need a new coach more than anything. This has to be MU's first order of business after we lose. I believe what happens to the roster should involve some input from the new coach. What style of play are we going to try and play? What types of players does the coach value? What skills does he value? Are there any players on the roster currently that are appealing to the coach? Who does he feel like he can work with? Who does he not want to coach?

There should be alot of discussion between MU and whomever he decides to hire regarding the direction of the roster and franchise. I guess it's possible to gut the team and then hire a developmental coach. But honestly, I hate the idea of hiring some half-assed coach just to lose games for tanking purposes. I want to hire a great coach that could survive a rebuild/tank and evolve with whatever players get drafted. I'm fine with tanking as long as we get our Brad Stevens type coach. None of these jerk-offs that increase our likelihood of losses. Someone that's gonna help build a program right off the bat, not someone who will be replaced as soon as the team/players look ready to compete.

Two fears with tanking: you strike out in multiple drafts and the process never stops. Or, you draft some decent players, but the shitty coach you hired to "help lose" games has screwed up their development.

I think there is more risk in tanking, but I would be fine with it if MU goes that way. There are players on the team I'd like to continue watching in the future, but if they get traded then so be it. No player has impressed me to the point where I would consider them untouchable.

All that being said, I think the likelihood that MU tanks this upcoming season is between 0-1%. The team has done better under him than ever before, fans are jumping on the bandwagon, MLSE is undoubtedly making some good coin, the all-star game next season...etc. My guess is he will try and build off that for next season, and try and send multiple guys to the all-star game. A few tweaks and a new coach/system and I believe this is possible.

[Bourgozie]

The problem is you run the risk of becoming the Knicks in giving away all your assets to build around one player. Striping down to build around one player, especially a player of Cousins' emotional make up, is dangerous because he will not be able to handle the criticism that comes with being the man on a losing team. He will grow frustrated and he will want out. To be fair, most players would.

I'm all about asset accumulation right now, if I was in charge.

Prospects and picks.

Cash out on the prospects when you feel confident you know what you have.

No one really knows what they have in Bruno right now except 7'7" in wingspan.

He's already in that position

I also feel as if what people say about his "emotional makeup" is completely overblown.

He seemed pretty composed this year in comparison to others, and was displaying some leadership qualities this season as well

[Just Is]

Retool.

There's talent here as was especially evident at the beginning of the year when the team was excelling IN SPITE of the coach and system in place. Some relatively minor (but big) changes can be done and this team can still be something. Bringing in a new coach and system will take at least 2 seasons to truly see fruit (i.e. Atlanta).