2015 Raptors Offseason - Everything rumors, musings and rumblings

[The Great One]

NBA Champions the last 10 years:

Warriors
Spurs
Heat
Heat
Mavs
Lakers
Lakers
Celtics
Spurs
Heat
Spurs

What do they have all in common?

[planetmars]

Disagree.

Horford or Favors would definitely make the team better. But would adding one of those guys make this team a championship contender? the answer is no.

As for the Warriors, i wouldn't call them a team with a 'bunch of real good talent'.

Steph Curry is a TRUE franchise player. To me he's in the LeBron, KD, Davis level.

Klay Thompson is a much better player than any player on this Raps team. He's the best 2 way SG in the NBA,

So like i said, the NBA is a superstars league. You're not going to win anything w/out one. The Warriors have one of the best player in the NBA in Curry.

I agree with Curry.. don't with Klay. Klay is a good player but not the best 2-way SG in the league. I give that to Jimmy Butler. I could argue that Danny Green is even better than Klay as well.

I'd rather have Lowry than Klay if a 1-1 trade went down (and salaries didn't matter).

[Primer]

Disagree.

Horford or Favors would definitely make the team better. But would adding one of those guys make this team a championship contender? the answer is no.

As for the Warriors, i wouldn't call them a team with a 'bunch of real good talent'.

Steph Curry is a TRUE franchise player. To me he's in the LeBron, KD, Davis level.

Klay Thompson is a much better player than any player on this Raps team. He's the best 2 way SG in the NBA,

So like i said, the NBA is a superstars league. You're not going to win anything w/out one. The Warriors have one of the best player in the NBA in Curry.

I call bullshit on both those statements. Curry cannot carry a team like Lebron can, not even close. Curry has been a really good player his whole career yet he never sniffed championship until this year with an excellent coach and an extremely strong supporting cast. You stick Lowry in Curry's slot and that's still a championship contender. You can't say that about Lebron and the Cavs.

Klay is a really good player, but he's no superstar and he wouldn't be able to carry a team on his own.

GS is a great example of lots of really good players working together under a great coach. You can't just stick Curry on a different team and call them contenders like you can with Lebron.

[The Great One]

I call bullshit on both those statements. Curry cannot carry a team like Lebron can, not even close. Curry has been a really good player his whole career yet he never sniffed championship until this year with an excellent coach and an extremely strong supporting cast. You stick Lowry in Curry's slot and that's still a championship contender. You can't say that about Lebron and the Cavs.

Klay is a really good player, but he's no superstar and he wouldn't be able to carry a team on his own.

GS is a great example of lots of really good players working together under a great coach. You can't just stick Curry on a different team and call them contenders like you can with Lebron.

Well he did last year.

Take Curry off the Warriors and i don't think they make the playoffs.

You don't win MVP by accident. Curry's a franchise player.

[Primer]

NBA Champions the last 10 years:

Warriors
Spurs
Heat
Heat
Mavs
Lakers
Lakers
Celtics
Spurs
Heat
Spurs

What do they have all in common?

Great coaches and rosters stuffed with talent.

Superstar player isn't the key or Spurs wouldn't have won their last title. I realize Duncan used to be a superstar but he got older and isn't nearly as dominant anymore, not even close (you and others seem to pretend guys don't age). Parker and Ginobili were very good players but never near superstar. Kawhi is also a really good player but won't ever be a superstar. The key is to have a lot of talent and a really good coach.

[Primer]

Well he did last year.

Take Curry off the Warriors and i don't think they make the playoffs.

You don't win MVP by accident. Curry's a franchise player.

So Steve Nash is a superstar twice over. How many titles did he win again? How many NBA Finals did he play in?

[The Great One]

NBA Champions the last 10 years:

Warriors
Spurs
Heat
Heat
Mavs
Lakers
Lakers
Celtics
Spurs
Heat
Spurs

What do they have all in common?

Ok i'll answer it before i go. What do they have all in common? They all have a SUPERSTAR player/Hall of Fame talents on their team. Some have more than one. That's the key. I don't give a shit how good of a coach you have on your team. You need FRANCHISE players to win in this league.

Phil Jackson wouldn't have won all those rings without Jordan, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe.

Warriors - Curry
Spurs - Duncan/Parker/Manu
Heat - LeBron/Wade
Heat - LeBron/Wade
Mavs - Nowitzki
Lakers - Kobe
Lakers - Kobe
Celtics - KG/Pierce
Spurs - Duncan/Parker/Ginobili
Heat - Shaq/Wade
Spurs - Duncan/Parker/Ginobili

[Chr1s1anL]

talent trumps everything

[Primer]

Ok i'll answer it before i go. What do they have all in common? They all have a SUPERSTAR player/Hall of Fame talents on their team. Some have more than one. That's the key. I don't give a shit how good of a coach you have on your team. You need FRANCHISE players to win in this league.

Phil Jackson wouldn't have won all those rings without Jordan, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe.

Warriors - Curry
Spurs - Duncan/Parker/Manu
Heat - LeBron/Wade
Heat - LeBron/Wade
Mavs - Nowitzki
Lakers - Kobe
Lakers - Kobe
Celtics - KG/Pierce
Spurs - Duncan/Parker/Ginobili
Heat - Shaq/Wade
Spurs - Duncan/Parker/Ginobili

You pretty much just make up superstar player as you go. Could you please list all superstar talent currently in the NBA. That way we'll know who to target and what exactly the word "superstar" means to you.

[JimiCliff]

Warriors - Curry
Spurs - Parker
Heat - LeBron/Wade
Heat - LeBron/Wade
Mavs - Nowitzki
Lakers - Kobe/Gasol
Lakers - Kobe/Gasol
Celtics - KG/Pierce/Allen
Spurs - Duncan/Parker/Ginobili
Heat - Shaq/Wade
Spurs - Duncan/Parker/Ginobili

Fixed some typos for you

The big two expceptions on this list are the most recent Spurs team and the Mavs. Neither were close to being the most talented team in the league, and coaching played a huge role (more so with Spurs) in those titles. That Spurs team might even be the first in NBA history where the most valuable member of the team was the coach.

The transformation of the Warriors under Kerr is more proof of the impact coaching can have.

But yes, generally, you need to have a top at least one Top-3(ish) talent to win it all.

[raptors999]

If talent was the only factor, more teams would have won consecutive titles.

[Fully]

If talent was the only factor, more teams would have won consecutive titles.

The NBA has more repeat champions since 1990 than the other 3 major sports combined… NHL has 2, MLB and NFL have 3 each and the NBA has 10. And that doesn't take into account a team like the Spurs, who technically never won it back to back but won 3 titles in 5 years at one point.

I don't think anyone is foolish enough to say that talent is the only thing that matters… and there's already been some outliers posted in this thread that would prove it. But professional basketball is clearly the sport where you can predict consistent success for any team that has a single superstar player (let's say top 3/4 in the league at any given point). It's why pretty much all of the titles over the last 30 years have been won by one of Magic, Bird, Jordan, Olajuwon, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe or Lebron.

I don't really want to get too deep into the "you need a superstar to win a title!" debate as it's not true and a dead horse regardless. But it still remains the simplest way to be really good, really quickly and then to also sustain it. And the NBA does actually have a great deal of consecutive title winners, based on this idea.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

The NBA has more repeat champions since 1990 than the other 3 major sports combined… NHL has 2, MLB and NFL have 3 each and the NBA has 10. And that doesn't take into account a team like the Spurs, who technically never won it back to back but won 3 titles in 5 years at one point.

I don't think anyone is foolish enough to say that talent is the only thing that matters… and there's already been some outliers posted in this thread that would prove it. But professional basketball is clearly the sport where you can predict consistent success for any team that has a single superstar player (let's say top 3/4 in the league at any given point). It's why pretty much all of the titles over the last 30 years have been won by one of Magic, Bird, Jordan, Olajuwon, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe or Lebron.

I don't really want to get too deep into the "you need a superstar to win a title!" debate as it's not true and a dead horse regardless. But it still remains the simplest way to be really good, really quickly and then to also sustain it. And the NBA does actually have a great deal of consecutive title winners, based on this idea.

However, as we saw with early Jordan, post-Shaq Kobe, the first season of the Miami super-friends teams, and all the LBJ Cavs teams, even transcendent talent can't win alone. They need a solid team around them and a coach who can implement effective systems on both ends of the court, to maximize the talent and find the best fit of supporting cast members around the star.

I would argue that if LBJ was on the Raptors, they would not be a true contender with Casey running the show. Just think how Casey utilized Gay - he'd coach using the 'give it to LeBron' game-planning. Talent matters, no doubt, but without a coach to harness the talent and makeup of the roster, it's a moot point when you're talking about NBA championships.

[Fully]

However, as we saw with early Jordan, post-Shaq Kobe, the first season of the Miami super-friends teams, and all the LBJ Cavs teams, even transcendent talent can't win alone. They need a solid team around them and a coach who can implement effective systems on both ends of the court, to maximize the talent and find the best fit of supporting cast members around the star.

I would argue that if LBJ was on the Raptors, they would not be a true contender with Casey running the show. Just think how Casey utilized Gay - he'd coach using the 'give it to LeBron' game-planning. Talent matters, no doubt, but without a coach to harness the talent and makeup of the roster, it's a moot point when you're talking about NBA championships.

I thought I pointed that out multiple times in my post that talent isn't the be all and end all factor when it comes to winning, (just the most important one). And like I also said, I wasn't trying to toe into the overdone debate of if you need a superstar to win a title, I was just pointing out that the earlier statement of "if talent was the only thing that mattered, more teams would win consecutive titles" was virtually backwards.

Not every topic has to deteriorate into a referendum on Casey, sometimes you can just reply to a comment in a vacuum. Mine was one of those posts.

[DogeLover1234]

Disagree.

Horford or Favors would definitely make the team better. But would adding one of those guys make this team a championship contender? the answer is no.

As for the Warriors, i wouldn't call them a team with a 'bunch of real good talent'.

Steph Curry is a TRUE franchise player. To me he's in the LeBron, KD, Davis level.

Klay Thompson is a much better player than any player on this Raps team. He's the best 2 way SG in the NBA,

So like i said, the NBA is a superstars league. You're not going to win anything w/out one. The Warriors have one of the best player in the NBA in Curry.

I may have missed it, but I haven't seen you propose an alternate team building route. How would you suggest we get this star player? We are well setup for a Trade, Signing and Draft pick this year so im not sure what else you would propose. multiple years of tanking?