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  • Primer wrote: View Post
    My idea of success for a new coach, regardless of roster construction, would be a competent offensive and defensive system. You can see this even with poor players, Boston in Stevens first year is a perfect example. That team barely won, but you could tell if the roster got better that the team would be good.

    I want to see good coaching. Plain and simple. Wins and losses don't matter as they're roster dependent. If we go all young guys, and they're swinging the ball around on offense until we get a good look, then I'll be happy, regardless if the shot goes in or not.
    Let me just start by saying that I never supported the hiring of Dwane Casey. I have no idea why we hired this guy in the first place when there were better, more experienced options available to us. His performance, based on the second half of the season and the horrific playoff performance is obviously grounds for a dismissal. While it may not be the best business decision, from a pure performance perspective, no one would be surprised if he was shown the door.

    Every year when the team surprised me and entered the playoffs, I kept saying -- this is still basically the same roster that I expected to win 20 games 2 years ago. Instead we won 48 and 49. After we traded Gay, I said trade DeRozan next, and then trade Lowry. I hate that I've grown attached to these guys over the past two years. They're both terribly flawed players that no fundamentally wired basketball fan should want on their team, and yet I love those guys. Lowry's heart and bull-headedness. DeRozan's crazy desire and work ethic.

    Anyway..

    You said you want to see good coaching, which you defined as competent offensive and defensive systems. By that description I assume you mean to say Casey doesn't have that, and therefore a coach who does have that should be considered a success.

    You also said winning doesn't matter, but I say winning does matter, but I digress.

    I guess the issue I have with judging a system is how far or at what point can you say this is the coach's doing versus this is a bunch of players who aren't playing the way the coach wants them to play?

    Let's take one simple example of boxing out. There is no coach on this planet that is telling his players not to box out. Not to protect the paint. If I think back on the Dallas Mavericks they did it. They did it fairly well, limiting Bosh's ability to cut to the hoop and also prevent Wade from cutting and getting easy baskets. I'm fairly certain the whole reason for hiring Casey was because of Dallas' stellar defensive system.

    So now we look at the Raptors, and you're saying this system is crap. But I saw a system that really worked so the conclusion I drew was that the players weren't doing what the coach asked them to do, but that wouldn't be a grounds to getting fired. What would be grounds to getting fired is NOT telling his players to box out. Not to protect the paint. If a coach were doing that, then yes please fire that guy. Let's say it would greatly surprise me that Casey would have decided to do the opposite of what won a championship, yet what we saw on the floor was precisely how to lose games.

    But you said winning doesn't matter. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

    How about a timeframe for deciding when the new coach has succeeded in implementing these systems? The reason I brought this up is because there weren't a lot of people asking for Casey's head at the end of last season. Things were looking.. decent. And then things fell apart. The main point for me here is that I feel that if we do hire a coach, and the team continue to be made up as it is with heavily flawed players, that maybe after one year things will look decent and then things will fall apart again, because that sort of happens when you have not-so-great players.

    So yea.. at what point would you deem that the new coach's system is a success. Since winning doesn't matter to you, I'm not sure there is really a way to measure that.
    your pal,
    ebrian

    Comment


    • I think Masai should use the same methodology for deciding to keep Casey as for any of the other pieces on the team, even if we do trade/release/not re-sign a player who will replace him and at what cost?

      He doesn't have the CBA and salary cap to constrain him but there are other important factors - like the Raptors public image. We can't be seen as one of those teams that's constantly on a coaching carousel. If you are going to give a young guy a shot, he better damn well have earned it. So are there any big name guys, who would want to take on this team that clearly needs to be shaken up? Probably not.

      Boston gave a brilliant young basketball mind a chance in Brad Stevens but also a complete re-build with 0 expectations. Detroit is probably off the carousel because they got their big name coach and put him in charge of the program with Stan Van Gundy.

      I wouldn't rush to fire Casey just to hire an assistant who seems equally as qualified as Casey did a few years back as illustrated in the post above. But if the right guy came along and would be interested in taking the job, let's hope Masai would pull the trigger.

      Thibs fits that bill for me..

      Comment


      • Okay guys. I'm willing to allow Casey back on one condition: WE DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT, sign Lou Williams back.
        Axel wrote:
        Now Cody can stop posting about this guy and we have a poster to blame if anything goes wrong!!
        KeonClark wrote:
        We won't hear back from him. He dissapears into thin air and reappears when you least expect it. Ten is an enigma. Ten is a legend. Ten for the motherfucking win.
        KeonClark wrote:
        I can't wait until the playoffs start.

        Until then, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they most often stink

        Comment


        • Cody73 wrote: View Post
          Okay guys. I'm willing to allow Casey back on one condition: WE DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT, sign Lou Williams back.
          That's a really generous one condition... I haven't backed off 50% of the roster yet

          Comment


          • Bandit wrote: View Post
            That's a really generous one condition... I haven't backed off 50% of the roster yet
            I think Masai is gonna stay put for the most part. He wants to build here. I'm just saying this: having GV and Lou play togther was a terrible choice. Lou's ISo ways spread to our main 2 frontcourt guys (A little to Ross as well) and Casey saw that shots fall down at first and was like "This is great!". Then we stopped making em. This is when Casey went all on the defensive side, backing that contagion that was Lou this year. I don't friggin care if he won 6th man. ISO ball is never the right way to play. Ever.
            Axel wrote:
            Now Cody can stop posting about this guy and we have a poster to blame if anything goes wrong!!
            KeonClark wrote:
            We won't hear back from him. He dissapears into thin air and reappears when you least expect it. Ten is an enigma. Ten is a legend. Ten for the motherfucking win.
            KeonClark wrote:
            I can't wait until the playoffs start.

            Until then, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they most often stink

            Comment


            • I seriously doubt either if Lou or Amir are back. Masai will want to play with that cap space (we have enough for a max offer on a RFA), and if either stays that cramps that idea big time.

              That said, I a) do not want Casey back under any circumstances. And b) if Casey is back, there'd better be bigger changes than not re-signing Lou.
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

              Comment


              • ebrian wrote: View Post
                I guess the issue I have with judging a system is how far or at what point can you say this is the coach's doing versus this is a bunch of players who aren't playing the way the coach wants them to play?

                Let's take one simple example of boxing out. There is no coach on this planet that is telling his players not to box out. Not to protect the paint. If I think back on the Dallas Mavericks they did it. They did it fairly well, limiting Bosh's ability to cut to the hoop and also prevent Wade from cutting and getting easy baskets. I'm fairly certain the whole reason for hiring Casey was because of Dallas' stellar defensive system.

                So now we look at the Raptors, and you're saying this system is crap. But I saw a system that really worked so the conclusion I drew was that the players weren't doing what the coach asked them to do, but that wouldn't be a grounds to getting fired. What would be grounds to getting fired is NOT telling his players to box out. Not to protect the paint. If a coach were doing that, then yes please fire that guy. Let's say it would greatly surprise me that Casey would have decided to do the opposite of what won a championship, yet what we saw on the floor was precisely how to lose games.
                First, you're assuming that the Raptors played the exact same system as the Mavericks in the finals, which is untrue. (Exhibit A).

                Second point (in bold) is directly on Casey. This system (scramble) relies on opponents not making many passes and hoisting long jumpers. Sounds great? Well, the reason why the Raps ranked bottom 5 in defense is because the system has zero counter for good ball movement and aggressive drives to the paint. By emphasizing the scrambling and not utilizing our best shot blocker (and top 10 rim protector in terms of Points Saved at the Rim per 36) in a more traditional style, Casey is indirectly devaluing the need to protect the paint and rebound the ball.

                Comment


                • I think all of this is based on speculation that because Ujiri hasn't fired Casey yet and didn't really say much during the end of season press conference the basketball media is just assuming Casey will be coming back absent any other info. I think the performance of The Bucks and The Nets during their series' makes the Raptors' performance in the post season look even worse. I still believe Casey will be axed and that significant roster turnover will be forthcoming.

                  Comment


                  • For the record I am in favor of trading Lowry, Derozan, JV for lottery picks / future picks, and commencing a complete rebuild.

                    Comment


                    • Thanks for the analyis @tDotted. Hopefully, with Masai's guidance (or insistence!) Casey can make better use of our big men next season.

                      Going further in regards to evaluating the "success" of a coach is this. Coaching performances are up and down all the time. We've all seen it, even Sam Mitchell was looking pretty good for a bit. Jay Triano looked decent for half a season. Casey looked promising after last year, having turned the defense around. Then with some personnel changes, he seemed to regress (quite badly in fact). What changed? Did he just start sucking? Did the players start tuning him out? Or did other teams watch enough film to figure us out? Ball movement was seen by the world when the Spurs won last year. Maybe teams adopted it, and our system became useless?

                      A number of coaches have had up and down seasons over their career. Phil Jackson has had many ups and downs, particularly with the Lakers. Rick Carlisle, Stan Van Gundy, Flip Saunders, Frank Vogel, these are all guys who have had up and down careers. Thibodeau also had some offensive issues until he got better players. From one year to the next if fans react to a single bad season, they're always going to think it's a bad coach.

                      Look, I'm not saying Casey could be one of the greats, but I'm also not dismissing it. Actually that's not my point at all. My real point is the next guy may not do any better, even if seems like he is. In two more years (if you're willing to wait), we could be having this discussion again.

                      Salaries for coaches are not part of the cap, but switching coaches as often as we have can come at great cost. Respectability around the league, for one. An experienced coach might look at our roster and think hell no, I'm not going there so I can get fired in 2 years. No thank you. Players might look at our team as a free agent and think the same -- how many coaches have these guys had in the last 5 years? If you go to the Spurs, you know who you will be playing for. It's like recruiting to Duke. Everyone knows what they're getting into.

                      Interestingly enough I just discovered that Dwane Casey is in the top half of the league for games coached. I'm really surprised by this. He's currently 12th most amongst active coaches. There are 14 coaches in the NBA with 2 or less years of coaching experience. How crazy is that? This is league is getting crazier and crazier when it comes to finding the right answer at the coaching position..
                      your pal,
                      ebrian

                      Comment


                      • ebrian wrote: View Post
                        Thanks for the analyis @tDotted. Hopefully, with Masai's guidance (or insistence!) Casey can make better use of our big men next season.

                        Going further in regards to evaluating the "success" of a coach is this. Coaching performances are up and down all the time. We've all seen it, even Sam Mitchell was looking pretty good for a bit. Jay Triano looked decent for half a season. Casey looked promising after last year, having turned the defense around. Then with some personnel changes, he seemed to regress (quite badly in fact). What changed? Did he just start sucking? Did the players start tuning him out? Or did other teams watch enough film to figure us out? Ball movement was seen by the world when the Spurs won last year. Maybe teams adopted it, and our system became useless?

                        A number of coaches have had up and down seasons over their career. Phil Jackson has had many ups and downs, particularly with the Lakers. Rick Carlisle, Stan Van Gundy, Flip Saunders, Frank Vogel, these are all guys who have had up and down careers. Thibodeau also had some offensive issues until he got better players. From one year to the next if fans react to a single bad season, they're always going to think it's a bad coach.

                        Look, I'm not saying Casey could be one of the greats, but I'm also not dismissing it. Actually that's not my point at all. My real point is the next guy may not do any better, even if seems like he is. In two more years (if you're willing to wait), we could be having this discussion again.

                        Salaries for coaches are not part of the cap, but switching coaches as often as we have can come at great cost. Respectability around the league, for one. An experienced coach might look at our roster and think hell no, I'm not going there so I can get fired in 2 years. No thank you. Players might look at our team as a free agent and think the same -- how many coaches have these guys had in the last 5 years? If you go to the Spurs, you know who you will be playing for. It's like recruiting to Duke. Everyone knows what they're getting into.

                        Interestingly enough I just discovered that Dwane Casey is in the top half of the league for games coached. I'm really surprised by this. He's currently 12th most amongst active coaches. There are 14 coaches in the NBA with 2 or less years of coaching experience. How crazy is that? This is league is getting crazier and crazier when it comes to finding the right answer at the coaching position..
                        Re Bold

                        I understand what your saying about having a stable organization and not firing coaches all the time but

                        How many players are going to want to come here and play for Casey? We have a big hole at PF because we lack a legit starting PF in this league. If theres a PF that wants to come here but sees how our Bigs are treated in Casey's system why would they even think about coming here?
                        "Both teams played hard my man" - Sheed

                        Comment


                        • I don't understand the coaching carousel talk.

                          Casey has been here for 4 years.

                          This was written in May 2014 but average length of NBA coach tenure at that time was 2.4 years.



                          One current NBA head coach got hired by his team before 2008. That's Gregg Popovich, who has led the Spurs to four titles and a long string of 50-win seasons. Only three other coaches, Erik Spoelstra, Rick Carlisle and Scott Brooks, have been in place since before 2010. And this chart should tell you everything you need to know about the rest of the league.
                          Eighteen jobs have turned over since the end of the 2012-13 season. That's more than half the league! One of those teams, the Detroit Pistons, has already fired the head coach they hired in the 2013 offseason, which gives us 19 head coach openings over two years.
                          The most amazing finding in the chart is that Jeff Hornacek is the longest-tenured coach in the Pacific Division. He was hired 11 months and 10 days ago. Michael Malone was hired two days later, and Doc Rivers joined the Clippers a couple of weeks later. Going into next season, the five Pacific coaches will have a combined three seasons of experience with their current teams. That's straight-up lunacy.
                          Is the quick hook in the NBA a bad or good thing? It's apparent that it can be destructive: what teams with high turnover tend to do is create a constant churn every couple of years. That lack of stability wears on players and creates a culture of uncertainty. In addition, learning new systems takes time and mental energy that might be better used sharpening up fundamentals.

                          On the other hand, if you hire a coach and realize he's a bad fit within 2-3 years, you can't hang on just for the sake of stability. The sunken cost fallacy comes into play here. Just because you've spent a year under a coach and guaranteed him three years of salary doesn't mean it would automatically be the wrong decision to can him. Each case must be evaluated individually.
                          re: bold - or 4 years!!

                          http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/5/7...fired-warriors


                          Then after that was published on May 7, 2014 you had following hires last off season:
                          Lionel Hollins - Brooklyn (replaced Kidd after 1 year)
                          David Blatt - Cleveland (replaced Mike Brown after 1 year)
                          SVG - Detroit
                          Bryon Scott - LAL
                          Jason Kidd - Milwaukee (after hiring Drew 1 year earlier)
                          Flip Saunders - Minny
                          Derek Fisher - NY
                          Quinn Snyder - Utah

                          This season we saw, firings and hirings in:
                          Orlando
                          OKC
                          Sacramento (2 times!)
                          Denver


                          I don't think there is any fear of the Raptors reaching coaching carousel status with the firing of Casey..... Now if they fire the new guy within a year, ok. Key take away: make a good hire and #FireCasey

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                          • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                            Key take away: make a good hire and #FireCasey
                            amen

                            Comment


                            • We can't afford to rotate through multiple coaches next year. We need a solid pick by Masai.

                              #FireCasey
                              The name's Bond, James Bond.

                              Comment


                              • Ross Holiday wrote: View Post
                                For the record I am in favor of trading Lowry, Derozan, JV for lottery picks / future picks, and commencing a complete rebuild.
                                lol
                                9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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