Rebuild ... What does it really mean ??

[thead]

I think sometimes you can take a lateral step or even half a step back in order to position yourself to go forward. After having thought about it a retool and rebuild are basically the same thing. However you can rebuild converting assets into other assets that fit better and still take a step forward...or you can sell everything get every pick possible and bottom out in order to rebuild

[special1]

If your trading Lowry

Who starts at PG?

Because if we dont replace Lowry with a PG whos as good as him or better than him, this team led by DD and whoever is going to be a perennial 1st round exit and NO free agent is coming here

Lets Go with the hypothetical lineup of

PG: Beverly, Vasquez
SG: DD, Ross
SF: Middelton, JJ, Bruno
PF: Jones, Patterson
C: JV, Bebe

+ Who you draft at 20


How is that Roster building on the "success" of the previous seasons?

That team still doesnt have a clear #1 or a player that can grow into it

So once again we'd be lucky to win a 1st round with HC just like the team with Lowry on it


Thats not going to attrack any FA's, That's a treadmill team and everyone knows those type of teams go nowhere and eventually need to be blown up. Theres no point in delaying the inevitable

I disagree. I think that team could be pretty good defensively and offensively. Defence wins in this league.

It's so easy to say - "hey that's a treadmill team." However, we got younger and possibly better defensively and offensively. Pass first point guard runs plays for Demar, JV and Middleton/Terrance Jones. We'll get to see more from JV than we'll ever see with Lowry as the PG. I think it's a better option than blowing it up.

I think it's better to stay competitive and flexible....plus we'd still have our draft picks.

Your argument is to blow it up every other year it seems. That's so simple to say and lacks any patience whatsoever.


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[JWash]

I disagree. I think that team could be pretty good defensively and offensively. Defence wins in this league.

It's so easy to say - "hey that's a treadmill team." However, we got younger and possibly better defensively and offensively. Pass first point guard runs plays for Demar, JV and Middleton/Terrance Jones. We'll get to see more from JV than we'll ever see with Lowry as the PG. I think it's a better option than blowing it up.

I think it's better to stay competitive and flexible....plus we'd still have our draft picks.

Your argument is to blow it up every other year it seems. That's so simple to say and lacks any patience whatsoever.


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Dude that team would never win anything, there's no clear #1 player. We'd have the same problem we do now. I guess the team "fits" a little bit better, but you're still not beating a legitimate title contender with that squad.

[Puffer]

...you're still not beating a legitimate title contender with that squad.

That's the rub, isn't it. How much are you willing to suffer over the next few years to become a "title contender"? Retooling won't get the Raptors there.

[DanH]

I disagree. I think that team could be pretty good defensively and offensively. Defence wins in this league.

It's so easy to say - "hey that's a treadmill team." However, we got younger and possibly better defensively and offensively. Pass first point guard runs plays for Demar, JV and Middleton/Terrance Jones. We'll get to see more from JV than we'll ever see with Lowry as the PG. I think it's a better option than blowing it up.

I think it's better to stay competitive and flexible....plus we'd still have our draft picks.

Your argument is to blow it up every other year it seems. That's so simple to say and lacks any patience whatsoever.


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You realize people suggesting the same thing every year is not ridiculous when that thing is not happening, right? It's not like we are tanking and then people ask for another tank - it's more like we are riding that treadmill hard and people keep asking to get off it.

[McRealistic]

I'll start by acknowledging that I'm not a fan who's advocating for a rebuild. I will admit that the lines between a rebuild and a re-tool can be blurred.

However, I'll give my two cents with regards to the OP's questions.

There are best case scenarios and worst case scenarios. A true plan would need to account for both scenarios ....Can we live with the outcomes? For example a good coach and unexpected wins can seriously hurt a true rebuild. Ben Uzoh cost us a chance to pick between Barnes or Lillard.

What do I think a rebuild would mean for this franchise?

I'm not sure. Without knowing which players will be acquired, it's guess work. Does it even make sense to rebuild without getting the highest possible draft picks in the next few years (yes, I'm talking about tanking). Can we truly rebuild without tanking? That is the question we need to ask ourselves.

Do we really want to restart the process we've tried many times in the past? Did we not tank for JV? Did we not tank for (Barnes/Lillard) I mean Ross? We've experienced situations where ONE extra win can cost a team a good young player. We also see that a missed pick could cost us a player that may end up being more valuable than the two players we were rumoured to be targeting (Andre Drummond). Regardless, if the goal is to get the best young talent in the league, we have to be terrible for the next couple years (assuming you have a good system in place to develop these kids). The chances of a late lottery pick turning out to be better than Kyle or Demar over the next couple years is super duper slim.

If we trade Lowry and Demar, we'd be tanking. Trading one of the two would not achieve a true rebuild as there may be draft pick protections in place. We're basically giving up 2 all-stars... With the team short of talent as is, I just don't see how we would even sniff the playoffs for the next few years. Look, we're not going to get all star calibre players back or else why would the other team trade them?

What time frame are we looking at to get back to where we are now?

I would say minimum 3-5 years (depending on how the players we received via trade/draft develop). I think we'd need to be in the lottery for at least 2-3 years. One good player IS NOT good enough in this league (see Chris Bosh or Kevin Love or Demarcus Cousins, etc)

How bad do we have to get so that our lottery picks translate to success?

I think it depends on the timeline/goal we set. The earlier the timeline, the better the pick would need to be. We would need to be awful....top 7, hopefully better.

I advocate re-tooling as mentioned by other posters.

Trade Lowry for a young PF (Maybe Randle from LA, Terrance Jones from Houston or even Kenneth Faried from Denver)....get a pass first - good defensive point guard (Corey Joseph or maybe Patrick Beverly with the Terrance Jones trade)....Bring in a competent SF via free agency (Middleton or Carroll) and re-evaluate.

We may take a step back or we might be even better. Building upon the regular season "success" over the last couple years will help to change the perception that Toronto may not be a loser city. Losers need to overpay free-agents (Hedo Turkglu type of players). We don't want to go back there because it won't matter how much cap space we have, NO ONE (who's actually good) will want to come here if we're perennial losers. A couple good pieces and/or a good coach could be the difference between first round out and regular season/playoff success.




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Beautiful post.

[McRealistic]

Dude that team would never win anything, there's no clear #1 player. We'd have the same problem we do now. I guess the team "fits" a little bit better, but you're still not beating a legitimate title contender with that squad.

The question then would be , with the extra cap room due to the TV deal and having a much more solid core group of players, a team that hopefully has made the play offs 3 years in a row and in 2015/16, got to 2nd round, can we attract the #1 option, via FA in 2016 FA ???

Can MU make that happen ? I don't know what the answer is.

[DanH]

The question then would be , with the extra cap room due to the TV deal and having a much more solid core group of players, a team that hopefully has made the play offs 3 years in a row and in 2015/16, got to 2nd round, can we attract the #1 option, via FA in 2016 FA ???

Can MU make that happen ? I don't know what the answer is.

The answer is almost certainly no. Stars are attracted by other stars, not solid supporting casts. And everyone will have major cap room, not just us, almost literally everyone. At least 20 teams, possibly as high as 25, could have room for a max offer - with some teams having room for two.

[McRealistic]

The answer is almost certainly no. Stars are attracted by other stars, not solid supporting casts. And everyone will have major cap room, not just us, almost literally everyone. At least 20 teams, possibly as high as 25, could have room for a max offer - with some teams having room for two.

So all those threads, all those people here in RR dreaming about KD just 8 month ago !!! Was that all pipe dreams ?

If we have no chance of ever getting star in this league by having a solid core, then we should really tank hard for next 3 years in order to get those high picks. Say what you want about J.V. will all his potentials, he is not and will not be a franchise player or a super star in this league.

[DanH]

So all those threads, all those people here in RR dreaming about KD just 8 month ago !!! Was that all pipe dreams ?

If we have no chance of ever getting star in this league by having a solid core, then we should really tank hard for next 3 years in order to get those high picks. Say what you want about J.V. will all his potentials, he is not and will not be a franchise player or a super star in this league.

Well, JV almost certainly will not be a superstar. But DeRozan and Lowry certainly will never be. And yes, we should tank (for one year at least, plus deal assets to get into the top of this draft).

[special1]

Rebuild ... What does it really mean ??

Dude that team would never win anything, there's no clear #1 player. We'd have the same problem we do now. I guess the team "fits" a little bit better, but you're still not beating a legitimate title contender with that squad.

Who says that's the squad of the future?? That's the squad for next year.... Did you miss the re-evaluate part? Fans seem to be on some unrealistic championship or bust mentality. It's ok to enjoy the process you know!!

The loser mentality I hear about makes sense as its coming from fans of a team who hasn't even made it out of the second round..... We've made the playoffs what 7 times in our history?? How about we make our goals a bit more realistic?

This franchise hasn't done fuck all and all we read about is contender or blow it up talk. We call our players crap (myself included) and then we want to trade this crap for young talent/high draft picks. It's comical to read at times.

The grass is always greener on the other side. Nobody wants to stay the course. DD, JV and Ross were all top 10 picks and none of them are in their prime. Players get destroyed by unrealistic expectations (Seen it happen to AB, Happening to DD, Ross, JV and now Bruno). I'm guilty of this as well.

This team was good enough to compete....that's it. Demar got injured and you saw the drop off. Lowry fell off from all-star status to scrub and you saw the result against a good Washington team with "IT". The team needed help (or IT) but never received the necessary moves because we were still evaluating. Then for some reason this fanbase, one year removed from making the playoffs for the first time in years - starts comparingTHIS team to contenders.......How crazy is that!?

I predict that if we choose to rebuild we'll be stuck in a horrible cycle. This will happen again as fans are unrealistic. 2-3 years after rebuilding, fans are going to want to see results. If we don't have the next Lebron/Superstar, and we're winning too much, we'll want to start another rebuild. If we're horrible (and there's a good chance we will be).....fire coach, fire GM, etc. Joke of a franchise.

I've said this many times... I never believed this team would be the final product for a contender. I still believe that they have some good pieces. People forget that DD, Ross, JV (even Bruno) got a taste of the playoffs. They know what they need to work on.... How hard it is to win. This is still development. We got swept but they learned something.....what better way to develop talent than actually have them in the playoffs? Add to the chosen core and move forward.

Edit: One more thing.

Everyone agrees that there are many ways to build a team. Yet most only advocate for the tank method and dismiss other options. I say add to the core and people look at me all dumbfounded. How is it possible without tanking?......But but cap space......no free agent will sign here.....blah blah blah. I guess that's why we're not GMs.

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[McRealistic]

Who says that's the squad of the future?? That's the squad for next year.... Did you miss the re-evaluate part? Fans seem to be on some unrealistic championship or bust mentality. It's ok to enjoy the process you know!!

The loser mentality I hear about makes sense as its coming from fans of a team who hasn't even made it out of the second round..... We've made the playoffs what 7 times in our history?? How about we make our goals a bit more realistic?

This franchise hasn't done fuck all and all we read about is contender or blow it up talk. We call our players crap (myself included) and then we want to trade this crap for young talent/high draft picks. It's comical to read at times.

The grass is always greener on the other side. Nobody wants to stay the course. DD, JV and Ross were all top 10 picks and none of them are in their prime. Players get destroyed by unrealistic expectations (Seen it happen to AB, Happening to DD, Ross, JV and now Bruno). I'm guilty of this as well.

This team was good enough to compete....that's it. Demar got injured and you saw the drop off. Lowry fell off from all-star status to scrub and you saw the result against a good Washington team with "IT". The team needed help (or IT) but never received the necessary moves because we were still evaluating. Then for some reason this fanbase, one year removed from making the playoffs for the first time in years - starts comparingTHIS team to contenders.......How crazy is that!?

I predict that if we choose to rebuild we'll be stuck in a horrible cycle. This will happen again as fans are unrealistic. 2-3 years after rebuilding, fans are going to want to see results. If we don't have the next Lebron/Superstar, and we're winning too much, we'll want to start another rebuild. If we're horrible (and there's a good chance we will be).....fire coach, fire GM, etc. Joke of a franchise.

I've said this many times... I never believed this team would be the final product for a contender. I still believe that they have some good pieces. People forget that DD, Ross, JV (even Bruno) got a taste of the playoffs. They know what they need to work on.... How hard it is to win. This is still development. We got swept but they learned something.....what better way to develop talent than actually have them in the playoffs? Add to the chosen core and move forward.

Edit: One more thing.

Everyone agrees that there are many ways to build a team. Yet most only advocate for the tank method and dismiss other options. I say add to the core and people look at me all dumbfounded. How is it possible without tanking?......But but cap space......no free agent will sign here.....blah blah blah. I guess that's why we're not GMs.

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another great post and rebuttal to the tanking argument.

[special1]

Well, JV almost certainly will not be a superstar. But DeRozan and Lowry certainly will never be. And yes, we should tank (for one year at least, plus deal assets to get into the top of this draft).

Tank for one year would be a disaster. Two lottery picks aren't enough man. Durant, Harden and Westbrook saw the finals once. We'd still need to get past Lebron. We'd have to hit a home run (I'm talking Lebron James calibre player). Deal assets?? Are you talking about JV? What other assets can get us to the top of the draft? This is a disaster waiting to happen.


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[DanH]

Yeah, but do you know what IT is? A superstar. When you have one of those, you can do all sorts of other minor stuff with systems and role players to get success. When you don't, eventually you run into someone who does and almost always end up on the wrong side of the won/lost line.

And the draft is the best chance for a team LIKE TORONTO to get a superstar.

[DanH]

Tank for one year would be a disaster. Two lottery picks aren't enough man. Durant, Harden and Westbrook saw the finals once. We'd still need to get past Lebron. We'd have to hit a home run (I'm talking Lebron James calibre player). Deal assets?? Are you talking about JV? What other assets can get us to the top of the draft? This is a disaster waiting to happen.


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Tank for one year = trade DeRozan and Lowry for a top 10 pick each this year. Then tank for a top pick next year, plus a possible lotto pick in 2016. Then maybe you keep losing if the talent you got isn't good enough, or you don't if it is - natural progression of things. Odds are you don't win much the second year either, but it won't be by intentionally tanking - you'd look to add talent in free agency. But with the core being young you are probably looking at another top 10 pick, though not tank-range.

With two valuable trade pieces in DD and Lowry, and with a reportedly good draft pick market for current talent, the two top picks from this year are like tanking last year and this (with our 20th last year and this as bonuses), next year's top pick is like tanking this year and NYK's pick is a bonus. It's a 3 year tank (with only one year of actually losing, and probably only one year of a top 5 pick unless you can really tempt NYK this year).