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The Raptors and the first 6 drafts of franchise history

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  • #16
    mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    With how things worked out for Bender, no, it wasn't a bad trade at all.

    The negative slant I put on the trade had more to do with the circumstances leading up to the trading of Bender.

    Imagine if the lineup had been:

    PG: Stoudamire
    SG: Carter
    SF: McGrady
    PF: Davis
    C: Camby


    That would have been a great use of the pick. But unfortunately, all the other stuff outside of talent got in the way leading the Raptors to rely on a rotation that by 2000 had 6 of 9 players well in to their 30s (Davis - 31, Oak - 36, Bogues - 35, Willis - 37, Brown - 31, Curry - 35).
    I really can't get over how insanely good that line up looks.

    Damn hindsight, you win again.
    "My biggest concern as a coach is to not confuse winning with progress." - Steve Kerr
    "If it's unacceptable in defeat, it's unacceptable in victory." - Jeff Van Gundy

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    • #17
      I mostly remember those 90s squads as some of the worst basketball teams I have ever watched. The '97 team played basketball like they hated it and wanted to kill it.

      Yes, as was pointed out above, the T-Mac situation destroyed the entire plan. I am convinced that team, with McGrady and Carter could have made it to multiple finals and maybe even won one. I like to think that McGrady often thinks about what could have been and smashes something expensive every time.

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      • #18
        Without the wear and tear of being "the guy" on those Orlando and Houston squads (Houston because Yao was always injured), he may have added years to his career playing along side VC.

        Still, I remember him as the guy who broke down in tears on the podium in front of media after a playoff ousting while playing for Houston. I remember thinking I wish other players took losing to heart the way he did.

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        • #19
          To add to the shoulda woulda couldas - not only would McGrady and Carter likely be fine playing together in this superfriends era, Stoudamire and Camby and management would also probably be fine with building a very young core in this salary-cap/draft-friendly era.

          Fortunes turn so quickly. During game #1 the other night they were rehashing how Golden State put this team together, and it really just boils down to a few key moves that easily could have gone another direction at the time. Nobody thought Curry was going to be an MVP, lots didn't even think he'd be a very good NBA player, but they only drafted him in 2009 and completely overhauled that team from the Monta Ellis/Stephen Jackson era to this one in just five seasons. In that amount of time that Raptors have managed to turn the Chris-Bosh-Atlantic-Champs-Franchise-Wins-Record-First-Round-Flameouts into the DeMar Derozan-Atlantic-Champs-Franchise-Wins-First-Round-Flameouts.

          The power of good (and sometimes lucky) draft picks, right? Land the right guy or two and you can turn the whole thing around in a pretty short time. Without that guy, spend season after season spinning your wheels while trying to make the best of it.
          "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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          • #20
            S.R. wrote: View Post
            To add to the shoulda woulda couldas - not only would McGrady and Carter likely be fine playing together in this superfriends era, Stoudamire and Camby and management would also probably be fine with building a very young core in this salary-cap/draft-friendly era.

            Fortunes turn so quickly. During game #1 the other night they were rehashing how Golden State put this team together, and it really just boils down to a few key moves that easily could have gone another direction at the time. Nobody thought Curry was going to be an MVP, lots didn't even think he'd be a very good NBA player, but they only drafted him in 2009 and completely overhauled that team from the Monta Ellis/Stephen Jackson era to this one in just five seasons. In that amount of time that Raptors have managed to turn the Chris-Bosh-Atlantic-Champs-Franchise-Wins-Record-First-Round-Flameouts into the DeMar Derozan-Atlantic-Champs-Franchise-Wins-First-Round-Flameouts.

            The power of good (and sometimes lucky) draft picks, right? Land the right guy or two and you can turn the whole thing around in a pretty short time. Without that guy, spend season after season spinning your wheels while trying to make the best of it.
            Yep. Pretty much every franchise can do a similar thing with drafts, trades, FA signings, coaches, etc... It's like you could make 10 great moves, but just 1 or 2 bad moves can mess up your franchise for a decade or more.

            How about these...

            What if Shaq & Chris Webber played together in Orlando?
            What if Oden, Aldridge and Roy could have stayed together?
            What if the Bulls drafted and kept Lamarcus Aldridge?
            What if the Pistons drafted Melo, instead of Darko?

            And speaking of Isiah Thomas' draft record, I think that's a bit overblown. T-Mac was a great pick, but otherwise...

            - Vince, Bosh & MoPete were drafted by Grunwald, not Zeke
            - Damon was a decent pick in a bad draft, but he turned out to be just an average PG, who put up classic big numbers on a crap team
            - Camby was actually a bad pick by Isiah. The 1996 draft had way better players selected later, e.g., Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Peja, Marbury, Shareef, Ilgauskas, Jermaine O'Neal and oh.......... and some guy named Kobe.

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            • #21
              S.R. wrote: View Post
              To add to the shoulda woulda couldas - not only would McGrady and Carter likely be fine playing together in this superfriends era, Stoudamire and Camby and management would also probably be fine with building a very young core in this salary-cap/draft-friendly era.

              Fortunes turn so quickly. During game #1 the other night they were rehashing how Golden State put this team together, and it really just boils down to a few key moves that easily could have gone another direction at the time. Nobody thought Curry was going to be an MVP, lots didn't even think he'd be a very good NBA player, but they only drafted him in 2009 and completely overhauled that team from the Monta Ellis/Stephen Jackson era to this one in just five seasons. In that amount of time that Raptors have managed to turn the Chris-Bosh-Atlantic-Champs-Franchise-Wins-Record-First-Round-Flameouts into the DeMar Derozan-Atlantic-Champs-Franchise-Wins-First-Round-Flameouts.

              The power of good (and sometimes lucky) draft picks, right? Land the right guy or two and you can turn the whole thing around in a pretty short time. Without that guy, spend season after season spinning your wheels while trying to make the best of it.
              GSW also built around Curry and Thompson. If they were on the Raptors both would be soft player that can't get to the line and too small or slow on defense. GSW were smart when they dumped Mark Jackson, he does fit the roster

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              • #22
                slaw wrote: View Post
                I mostly remember those 90s squads as some of the worst basketball teams I have ever watched. The '97 team played basketball like they hated it and wanted to kill it.

                Yes, as was pointed out above, the T-Mac situation destroyed the entire plan. I am convinced that team, with McGrady and Carter could have made it to multiple finals and maybe even won one. I like to think that McGrady often thinks about what could have been and smashes something expensive every time.
                T-Mac has been interviewed a few times and pretty much said that, in hindsight, he should have stayed together with Vince. Faaahck. I got depressed after hearing that. Kobe also said that a TMac-Vince core would have been a finals contender every year. It would have been like an early version of Wade-Lebron.

                And what if Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Ibaka stayed together?

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                • #23
                  Letter N wrote: View Post
                  ZBo did have a ton of character issues at that point though. In fact it was a big problem everywhere he went until he got to Memphis.

                  I can't imagine Toronto being the place where he turned that around.
                  very true...however you never know the affect that being on a team surrounded with vets like Davis, Curry & Hakeem that year would have had on him. anyway hindsight is 20/20...that was a different NBA in those days...in my first post I mentioned the reasoning behind trading Damon, Camby & Billups which made sense in that NBA...if RFA existed back then and we matched TMac contract then the plan comes together and this franchise becomes a dynasty and re-writes history.

                  hell look at what the "VC" lineup would have been if the franchise listened to his requests:
                  Dr. J in management
                  JVG- Head Coach
                  PG: Steve Nash
                  SG: Vince Carter
                  PF: Chris Bosh
                  C: Jamal Maglorie
                  SF: Andre Iguodala (assuming with Babcock not around they went with the consensus choice)

                  Hell imagine if BC picked Aldridge & Millsap in 2006...this is why I hate playing the 'what if' game cause its a reminder of the history of failure surrounding this franchise....

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                  • #24
                    I never did get the Dr. J thing. I guess VC thought was going to be the Drake of the Toronto management? Correct me if I'm wrong but he's never had any executive job anywhere in the NBA right? I mean I guess having a classy NBA legend who dresses impeccably but doesn't make decisions wouldn't hold the organization back. I just thought it was silly. Maybe not mom-parking-spot silly, but silly nonetheless.



                    GS also lucked out with Curry's ankle injuries. 1) that they seem to be behind him 2) at the time they were so worrisome they were able to sign him to a ridiculous extension. That's a big reason they could afford to bring in Iggy. Great drafting certainly helps too.
                    Two beer away from being two beers away.

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                    • #25
                      Mess wrote: View Post
                      I never did get the Dr. J thing. I guess VC thought was going to be the Drake of the Toronto management? Correct me if I'm wrong but he's never had any executive job anywhere in the NBA right? I mean I guess having a classy NBA legend who dresses impeccably but doesn't make decisions wouldn't hold the organization back. I just thought it was silly. Maybe not mom-parking-spot silly, but silly nonetheless.
                      Yea the thinking was as GM or consultant, for the name to mainly help with Free Agency, Dr. J front office gig's were VP for the Orlando Magic and consultant with the 76ers but thats about it.

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                      • #26
                        golden wrote: View Post
                        - Camby was actually a bad pick by Isiah. The 1996 draft had way better players selected later, e.g., Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Peja, Marbury, Shareef, Ilgauskas, Jermaine O'Neal and oh.......... and some guy named Kobe.
                        Camby won 3 Player of the Year awards in college while averaging 20 ppg and 4 blocks... Wasn't a hard pick. Plus, the only one of those guys that you should've listed was Ray Allen. In terms of predicted draft position & success he was the only that could've realistically been taken. Shareef and Marbury hardly had any better careers.. And selecting Kobe, Nash, Peja, Jermaine or Ilgauskas with the 2nd pick (none were projected higher than 13) would've cost Zeke his job.

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                        • #27
                          tDotted wrote: View Post
                          Camby won 3 Player of the Year awards in college while averaging 20 ppg and 4 blocks... Wasn't a hard pick. Plus, the only one of those guys that you should've listed was Ray Allen. In terms of predicted draft position & success he was the only that could've realistically been taken. Shareef and Marbury hardly had any better careers.. And selecting Kobe, Nash, Peja, Jermaine or Ilgauskas with the 2nd pick (none were projected higher than 13) would've cost Zeke his job.
                          All true what you're saying, but we're playing the 20/20 hindsight "what if" game here. If Zeke was really that good, he would have traded down for Kobe and picked up another asset. In hindsight, there were a lot better guys on the board and arguably a collective fail by NBA scouting, league-wide except Jerry West.

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                          • #28
                            slaw wrote: View Post
                            I mostly remember those 90s squads as some of the worst basketball teams I have ever watched. The '97 team played basketball like they hated it and wanted to kill it.

                            Yes, as was pointed out above, the T-Mac situation destroyed the entire plan. I am convinced that team, with McGrady and Carter could have made it to multiple finals and maybe even won one. I like to think that McGrady often thinks about what could have been and smashes something expensive every time.
                            In TMacs defence, management handled him incorrectly.

                            For whatever it's worth, the year after McGrady left I met Antonio Davis in Scotia Plaza.

                            He was nice to speak with me and didn't just brush me off and I said to him I don't know how we could have let McGrady walk. He said that Tmac only left because management offered him an extension no where close to the max and had 'workout' provisions built into it which insulted him, according to Davis. He said that Tmac was always working out and Vince was the guy who wasn't as committed to training.

                            At this time, teams weren't giving out max deals based on potential as readily as they are now but if they had of offered him the most they could, there is a good chance he would have resigned because he knew how good the team could be.

                            Food for thought.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              sleepz wrote: View Post
                              In TMacs defence, management handled him incorrectly.

                              For whatever it's worth, the year after McGrady left I met Antonio Davis in Scotia Plaza.

                              He was nice to speak with me and didn't just brush me off and I said to him I don't know how we could have let McGrady walk. He said that Tmac only left because management offered him an extension no where close to the max and had 'workout' provisions built into it which insulted him, according to Davis. He said that Tmac was always working out and Vince was the guy who wasn't as committed to training.

                              At this time, teams weren't giving out max deals based on potential as readily as they are now but if they had of offered him the most they could, there is a good chance he would have resigned because he knew how good the team could be.

                              Food for thought.
                              The mere existence of Darryl Walker didn't help either....

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                              • #30
                                sleepz wrote: View Post
                                In TMacs defence, management handled him incorrectly.

                                For whatever it's worth, the year after McGrady left I met Antonio Davis in Scotia Plaza.

                                He was nice to speak with me and didn't just brush me off and I said to him I don't know how we could have let McGrady walk. He said that Tmac only left because management offered him an extension no where close to the max and had 'workout' provisions built into it which insulted him, according to Davis. He said that Tmac was always working out and Vince was the guy who wasn't as committed to training.

                                At this time, teams weren't giving out max deals based on potential as readily as they are now but if they had of offered him the most they could, there is a good chance he would have resigned because he knew how good the team could be.

                                Food for thought.
                                If my memory serves me correctly, TMac's reason for leaving was "He wanted to be da man" & get out of his (more popular) cousin's (VC) shadow.
                                Where-ever he went (Orlando, Houston) he was the man, he won personal accolades (scoring, all star...) but his teams never won shit (only once got out of first round I believe).
                                He would have been incredible Robin, but he wanted to be the Batman. He could not wait to get out of To (everything else was an excuse).

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