Has Everyone given up on DD

[draps]

There's nothing wrong with demars game he just needs to be a number 2. Let somebody else bail out the team on shitty possessions and actually be able to draw a double team. It's pretty impressive we won that many games when nobody else on the team draws anywhere close the defensive attention demar does.

If you hate him, it's probably because he's one of the worst first options in the league, but he could be one of the best seconds.

[MACK11]

There's nothing wrong with demars game he just needs to be a number 2. Let somebody else bail out the team on shitty possessions and actually be able to draw a double team. It's pretty impressive we won that many games when nobody else on the team draws anywhere close the defensive attention demar does.

If you hate him, it's probably because he's one of the worst first options in the league, but he could be one of the best seconds.

I don't understand this, say hypothetically we get a legit 1st option aka Durant (Unrealistic)

Say Durant or any other 1st option has the ball. The other team would immediately help off DD and double the 1st option because DeMar doesn't shoot 3s. The defense would dare DD to beat them shooting 3s instead of letting the 1st option score. And with DD being a career 27% 3pt shooter the defense will live with him shooting the ball.

So I don't see how DD can be the 2nd option when he doesn't have the skill sets needed to be that.

DeMar works on this team because he's the guy with the ball in his hands and Vasquez, Lou, Ross, Lowry are the guys who are spotting up and they're actual threats from there.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I don't understand this, say hypothetically we get a legit 1st option aka Durant (Unrealistic)

Say Durant or any other 1st option has the ball. The other team would immediately help off DD and double the 1st option because DeMar doesn't shoot 3s. The defense would dare DD to beat them shooting 3s instead of letting the 1st option score. And with DD being a career 27% 3pt shooter the defense will live with him shooting the ball.

So I don't see how DD can be the 2nd option when he doesn't have the skill sets needed to be that.

DeMar works on this team because he's the guy with the ball in his hands and Vasquez, Lou, Ross, Lowry are the guys who are spotting up and they're actual threats from there.

We've now come full-circle to why people argued Ross was a better fit at SG alongside Gay, at the start of last season. It's not always about individual skill, but how 5 individual skillsets (and the role each plays) fit together on the court. The biggest Ross supporters admitted DeRozan was the superior player, while pointing out that his skill and strengths aren't those typically associated with a #2/#3. When you consider that one of his greatest strengths, which is often pointed out as offsetting his inefficient scoring (getting to the line), is dependent on him having high usage, it's another nail in his coffin.

DeRozan is an inefficient #1 option, or a poor fit as a #2/3 option. As many have said around here for years, albeit as a highly unpopular sentiment, DeRozan seems best suited to be a high-minutes 6th man (ie: Ginobli). Give him the ball against 2nd unit defenders (for half his minutes at least), and I think his efficiency would actually increase, allowing him to shoot less and score an equal amount (or maybe even more).

There are 3 questions that need to be addressed:
1. Will DD's ego allow him to take a lesser role?
2. Will DC use him in a lesser role?
3. Will DD's agent allow him to get paid according to a lesser role?

[QuadrupleDouble]

We've now come full-circle to why people argued Ross was a better fit at SG alongside Gay, at the start of last season. It's not always about individual skill, but how 5 individual skillsets (and the role each plays) fit together on the court. The biggest Ross supporters admitted DeRozan was the superior player, while pointing out that his skill and strengths aren't those typically associated with a #2/#3. When you consider that one of his greatest strengths, which is often pointed out as offsetting his inefficient scoring (getting to the line), is dependent on him having high usage, it's another nail in his coffin.

DeRozan is an inefficient #1 option, or a poor fit as a #2/3 option. As many have said around here for years, albeit as a highly unpopular sentiment, DeRozan seems best suited to be a high-minutes 6th man (ie: Ginobli). Give him the ball against 2nd unit defenders (for half his minutes at least), and I think his efficiency would actually increase, allowing him to shoot less and score an equal amount (or maybe even more).

There are 3 questions that need to be addressed:
1. Will DD's ego allow him to take a lesser role?
2. Will DC use him in a lesser role?
3. Will DD's agent allow him to get paid according to a lesser role?

At this stage of demar's career he will not be a 6th on any team because of his ego which is understandable. Maybe after he is 30

[draps]

Team USA seemed to think demar was capable playing without being 1st option when they put him on the team. Thinking being a second option is a simple as standing at the 3 point line is silly.
Buttttt...
-He's been a respectable corner 3 threat the last 2 years, people won't leave him from there.
- if you give him space he is more than capable of finding a lane to the basket or getting fouled/ stepping in for a midrange.
-He's a efficient pick and roll ball handler.
- he's one of the best in the league at hitting teammates for corner 3s.
- you let him turn the corner and you are fucked.
- with another elite wing he gets the worse defender(higher chance of having someone he can post up too)
- instead of 4-5 bad shots a game he's looking at 2-3 making him way more efficient.
- he can focus more energy on defence.
- he can bail you out in tough situations.

there's not a coach in the league who wouldn't want demar in their lineup as a number 2 or 3

[JWash]

Why can't a 2nd option be a player that operates primarily from mid-range and attacks the basket? Many second options on championship teams have been players like that. Not saying DeMar is necessarily as good as all of them (however we don't know how much better DeMar would actually play next to a bonafide #1 guy).

Some examples:
- Tony Parker
- Early 2000s Kobe
- Wade (Heatles version)
- Rip Hamilton
- Clyde Drexler

[Just Is]

Why can't a 2nd option be a player that operates primarily from mid-range and attacks the basket? Many second options on championship teams have been players like that. Not saying DeMar is necessarily as good as all of them (however we don't know how much better DeMar would actually play next to a bonafide #1 guy).

Some examples:
- Tony Parker
- Early 2000s Kobe
- Wade (Heatles version)
- Rip Hamilton
- Clyde Drexler

All those players shot at better clips then DeMar and were able to provide more than just scoring to their teams.

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[distorsun]

"I think the reason why masai has put emphasis on culture and continuity is because he wants this team to become like the 2004 pistons"

Nope. HE'S doing the exact opposite.

see we all agree that he isnt a number one guy but the way i see masai building this team i don't think there will ever be a number one guy, and that's not a bad thing. I think the reason why masai has put emphasis on culture and continuity is because he wants this team to become like the 2004 pistons. A team that wins by using every single player and running like a synergised, well oiled machine. If we get middleton, draft harrell, and get the team to buy into this mentality, we could be looking at a good team next year. Because this mentality will do wonders for JV and demar as a duo, middleton will be fed easy points like draymond green with the warriors ball movement crazed offense. And well guys like harrell and Lowry will be fine either way cuz harrell don't need no plays for him and lowry is a bulldog who will find his way, plus masai can talk him into this. Also, maybe ppat won't be stuck playing like channing frye...

[special1]

We've now come full-circle to why people argued Ross was a better fit at SG alongside Gay, at the start of last season. It's not always about individual skill, but how 5 individual skillsets (and the role each plays) fit together on the court. The biggest Ross supporters admitted DeRozan was the superior player, while pointing out that his skill and strengths aren't those typically associated with a #2/#3. When you consider that one of his greatest strengths, which is often pointed out as offsetting his inefficient scoring (getting to the line), is dependent on him having high usage, it's another nail in his coffin.

DeRozan is an inefficient #1 option, or a poor fit as a #2/3 option. As many have said around here for years, albeit as a highly unpopular sentiment, DeRozan seems best suited to be a high-minutes 6th man (ie: Ginobli). Give him the ball against 2nd unit defenders (for half his minutes at least), and I think his efficiency would actually increase, allowing him to shoot less and score an equal amount (or maybe even more).

There are 3 questions that need to be addressed:
1. Will DD's ego allow him to take a lesser role?
2. Will DC use him in a lesser role?
3. Will DD's agent allow him to get paid according to a lesser role?

Three questions somewhat answered:

1. Demar has taken a back seat to Bosh, Bargnani, Rudy Gay, Kyle Lowry and TEAM USA....there's evidence to show that he can.

I think he likes playing with better players. I would too.

2. Does he need to have a lesser role or does he need a better player to step up and take that responsibility away from him?

3. Do we even have a "lesser role" for him?

Will we bring in better players or will this be a Bargnani, Gay, Lowry, Ross, JV situation where he's actually the #1/1b player.

Having said that, I think he'll accept #2 option $$ and we should pay it.

Let's see what Masai does.




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[BS10]

I don't think he's a bad player but he could be used a lot more effectively. This coupled with the special treatment he gets from father Casey makes him play selfishly and inefficiently. I watched the finals tonight and I saw Chef Curry give up so much shots to give the ball up to the open man on his team for the high percentage shot. He made himself be seen as a scoring threat without even scoring the basket and helped his teammates become important scoring options. I don't understand why the raptors can't do the same. It seems like such an small and easy thing.

There's so much wrong with the raptors, its hard to put blame on one guy all the time, anyway. Derozan as the primary scoring option might be one of the problems to why the raptors could be doing much better but theres lots of other reasons as well.

I think if we could get back a good return for Derozan, I'm all for trading him. I wish we package him in a deal with Casey and get rid of the tandem altogether. Would be great for our team.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Three questions somewhat answered:

1. Demar has taken a back seat to Bosh, Bargnani, Rudy Gay, Kyle Lowry and TEAM USA....there's evidence to show that he can.

I think he likes playing with better players. I would too.

2. Does he need to have a lesser role or does he need a better player to step up and take that responsibility away from him?

3. Do we even have a "lesser role" for him?

Will we bring in better players or will this be a Bargnani, Gay, Lowry, Ross, JV situation where he's actually the #1/1b player.

Having said that, I think he'll accept #2 option $$ and we should pay it.

Let's see what Masai does.




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The frustrating thing is that we've seen glimpses of his all-around play, when he facilitates for his teammates, clears the boards and actually tries on defense... but I can probably count those games on one hand. As discussed during the season, is that all on him, or is it on DC and the role he forces (and/or is forced) DeRozan to play?

The tricky part is that barring the #20 pick developing into a superstar or massively overpaying for a top-tier free agent (and likely renouncing at least some of their own depth in the process), the only other way to acquire that #1 player is by trading Lowry, DeRozan, JV or future #1 picks.

Unless the Raptors get lucky, it seems like there's a lot more options that would fall under "rebuild/retool" or "BC-esque move", rather than building the team while keeping the core together.

[JawsGT]

I don't think he's a bad player but he could be used a lot more effectively. This coupled with the special treatment he gets from father Casey makes him play selfishly and inefficiently. I watched the finals tonight and I saw Chef Curry give up so much shots to give the ball up to the open man on his team for the high percentage shot. He made himself be seen as a scoring threat without even scoring the basket and helped his teammates become important scoring options. I don't understand why the raptors can't do the same. It seems like such an small and easy thing.

There's so much wrong with the raptors, its hard to put blame on one guy all the time, anyway. Derozan as the primary scoring option might be one of the problems to why the raptors could be doing much better but theres lots of other reasons as well.

I think if we could get back a good return for Derozan, I'm all for trading him. I wish we package him in a deal with Casey and get rid of the tandem altogether. Would be great for our team.

I understand where you are coming from but the thing is, we do not have a Steph Curry. And that's it right there. This guy is the most insane shooter I've seen. There is literally no bad shot for him to take, he is that good that he demands attention wherever he is on the court, whether he has the ball in his hands or not. Curry could be the Reggie Miller of the current NBA, and he is I guess, but he is also an incredible ball handler and has impressive vision. He knows when he can shoot, when he can drive and when he should pass. If you watch enough GSW ball, you will quickly realize that Curry's shot selection isn't that great...for almost everyone else in the league, but for him it's acceptable, and he's learned to leverage that ability in order to bend defenses and make plays.

The Raps have no one even close to having that ability. Nonetheless, I understand that you are mostly suggesting we have better ball movement, and I couldn't agree more.

But again, we have roster limitations...not with regard to passing as Casey may have suggested, but with the ability to make plays that lead to easy passes for easy buckets.

As for Derozan, this comes back to his handle IMO. He improved significantly last season relative to the previous campaign, but he is not where a player needs to be in order to be a really effective playmaker. It seems like he is somewhere between having to handle the ball with his eyes down and focus on his handle and immediate defender to being able to dribble fluidly with his head up and completely assess the defence. The latter is an elite skill, and guys like Curry have it, which I think is extremely important to his effectiveness. Nash had this skill, Paul has it, Irving has it, all mostly point guards. But Harden is pretty close to elite (not as good as the previous mentioned, but good enough) as well as LBJ and Durant. Derozan is clearly a step or two beneath these guys, and given that we run alot of offence through Demar, it's easy to see how the problems arise in our "system".

As viewers, we often see passes that Demar (and others) should make but do not. It's easy when you have an elevated view of the court as a viewer, but as a player at court level with a less than elite level handle, transitioning from dribble to passing with an eye on that open player under the basket or on the other side of the court isn't so easy. Remember, unless you have an elite level handle, it's difficult to focus on what's going on on the court outside of what's happening immediately in front of you. So there are obvious passes that we as fans can see, that Demar as the ball handler may not.

Now, I'm not trying to make excuses here. Demar passed up on many pretty obvious passes throughout the season, especially inside to JV that regardless of his handle or vision, should have been made. He can clearly be better in that regard. Nonetheless, if he wants to be elite, and if the Raptors want to continue to run offence through him, he has to improve even more with regard to his handle. His ability to dribble fluidly with his head up, without having to worry about being picked or coughing up the ball, is the most important part of his game that he needs to improve upon going forward.

Being able to shoot the 3 at a respectable level would help of course, but it's hard to envision Demar as a knock down 3pt shooter, regardless of the time and effort he puts into it. Good shooters are usually good when they enter the league. I don't doubt Demar could improve to average level, or maybe a little above but him sniffing the 38%+ mark is somewhat unrealistic. It is, however, more realistic for him to continue to improve his handle, and as a better ball handler I think his vision, playmaking and maybe even shot selection could improve.

[Superjudge]

I'm just answering the main post.... I'm not sure anyone "gave up" on derozan. Why would they, he's pretty solid. Very, very good player. Thing is, if you wanna win, you need a guy like that n at least 4 positions. If they aren't as aggressive or as physically gifted, they need to be equivalently clever with high IQ.

[JWash]

Just saying if DeRozan were to end up on a team with a legit star for him to play off (like say the Clippers for example), people would probably be very irked by how much better he'd be playing.

[OldSkoolCool]

Have you guys ever moticed that there has never been a lot of trade rumours about DD?

It seems like all of the good players 2nd tier guys generate some trade rumours as they are sought after by other fans.

Maybe the reason why we don't see much is he doesn't have much value around the league....

Food for thought