Poeltl & Pascal - The 2016 Draft

[russellhantz]

You and I are not brothers. I'm not overvaluing Skal. What posts have I praised Skal? He's an interesting stretch 4, but he's afraid of contact too.

I want Davis, if the choices are that group of PFs. He can defend out to the perimeter, isn't afraid of contact and has a stroke that can likely be stretched out.

I'm not overvaluing anything. Don't put words in peoples' mouths.

Sorry. I'll correct my statement "Chill [Dude]". I'm not putting words in anyone's mouths. I also certainly am not going back and seeing who you think is good or bad.

I'm talking about the damn poll at the top of the page that has Skal at 2nd which is the best indicator of consensus.

Anyway i'm trying to have a different discussion. No one is right or wrong. I'm trying to ask the forum board if we take out athletcism and hell let's even take out defense.

Let's say that leaves motor, shooting, playmaking/bball IQ. What would the forum consider the best choice at 9?

[Chr1s1anL]

Ellenson catching a little too much hate. Yes, he is going to struggle on D in his first couple years but, so did JV. That's why we have coaches to coach him up.

Offensively he's the best player in our current range. Especially at position where we got nothing from offensively in the Eastern Conference Finals.

[Axel]

. I'm trying to ask the forum board if we take out athletcism and hell let's even take out defense.

Let's say that leaves motor, shooting, playmaking/bball IQ. What would the forum consider the best choice at 9?

Why on earth would we want to take defence out of the equation?

[OldSkoolCool]

Not relevant to the Raptors, but who you guys got between Ingram and Simmons? Curious

Personally I see Ingram as head and shoulders above Simmons

[Axel]

Not relevant to the Raptors, but who you guys got between Ingram and Simmons? Curious

Personally I see Ingram as head and shoulders above Simmons

I like Ingram more too. Simmons will be good too though.

[planetmars]

Not relevant to the Raptors, but who you guys got between Ingram and Simmons? Curious

Personally I see Ingram as head and shoulders above Simmons

Neither appear to blow me away. Neither really helped their college teams. Ingram is a tweaner, and there have been many tweaners that never pan out. KD is an exception not the norm. Simmons looks more like a stat stuffer.. but stat stuffers do really well in the association.

It's very possible in 5 years neither become the best of the class. A guy like Bender, Dunn or Brown could end up the best in the class.

But if the choice was for the Raptors I'd tend to lean for Simmons. I feel like Ingram is just way to small.. and would need a couple of years to be able to bang with the professionals. Simmons seems more NBA ready.

[Joey]

For me, Simmons has more of a chance of becoming Evan Turner than he does becoming a Superstar.

Ingrams athleticism and versatility will be an asset. He'll figure things out and be a pretty Special player me thinks.


Also like to see the board coming around to Skal in the Poll! The dude is going to be a freak. The Haitian Sensation.

[MACK11]

Not relevant to the Raptors, but who you guys got between Ingram and Simmons? Curious

Personally I see Ingram as head and shoulders above Simmons

I'm not really that high on either honestly. In a regular draft they might not go top 5. This year's draft looks like it won't have much stars but a lot of depth.

[MACK11]

Neither appear to blow me away. Neither really helped their college teams. Ingram is a tweaner, and there have been many tweaners that never pan out. KD is an exception not the norm. Simmons looks more like a stat stuffer.. but stat stuffers do really well in the association.

It's very possible in 5 years neither become the best of the class. A guy like Bender, Dunn or Brown could end up the best in the class.

But if the choice was for the Raptors I'd tend to lean for Simmons. I feel like Ingram is just way to small.. and would need a couple of years to be able to bang with the professionals. Simmons seems more NBA ready.

Ingram was 169lbs at the beginning of his 1 season at Duke. He now claims he's 190lbs or so but that's still way way to small to play SF. Just as a comparison Tross is 200lbs and he gets bullied all the time.

[lewro]

Poeltl is a good athlete, it's his ceiling that worries me.
Keep in mind the poll asks who you think the raps will draft, not who you want.

[russellhantz]

Why on earth would we want to take defence out of the equation?

Just to frame the question a different way and see if we can discover different results. Based on our poll with Davis and Skal at 1 and 2 we are valuing defense and athleticism. (I know this is a generalization but bear with me).

If we level the field and take those variables out who becomes BPA? If we change the rubric in how we evaluate players we can limit our biases. If the same players show up frequently through different methods of filtering we can identify the players with most aptitude.

[Deino]

Not relevant to the Raptors, but who you guys got between Ingram and Simmons? Curious

Personally I see Ingram as head and shoulders above Simmons

It depends on team needs/vision,Simmons seem to be the better pick for most teams unless a team is looking at Ingram's shooting capabilities as a bigger value.

[big boi]

Ellenson catching a little too much hate. Yes, he is going to struggle on D in his first couple years but, so did JV. That's why we have coaches to coach him up.

Offensively he's the best player in our current range. Especially at position where we got nothing from offensively in the Eastern Conference Finals.

Please don't compare JV and Ellenson. JV has always been a willing defender. And too often he's been asked to help other players that can't defend their position. Like Demar. If all he was ever asked to do was defend his position he'd have been in much better shape. But Demar has been a seive defensively for most of that time, so what are you gonna do?

Ellenson isn't just hampered defensively because he has not physically matured yet, which is perhaps what you are referencing with JV. Ellenson doesn't seem to be interested in playing defence. He actually gets out of the way. He displays a lack of intensity. Guys like that used to drive me nuts as a player. And it's demoralizing to a team. At least Demar tries, has Heart and a good work ethic. I admit I'm going by DX video of his weaknesses, and other reports. But what I see on that video is unforgivable. I would be in that guy's grill every game. Raptors don't need that drama.

[Axel]

Just to frame the question a different way and see if we can discover different results. Based on our poll with Davis and Skal at 1 and 2 we are valuing defense and athleticism. (I know this is a generalization but bear with me).

If we level the field and take those variables out who becomes BPA? If we change the rubric in how we evaluate players we can limit our biases. If the same players show up frequently through different methods of filtering we can identify the players with most aptitude.

Or based on the poll results people are choosing who they think is the best player. Removing defence and athleticism doesn't "level the playing field" it actually skews results pretty significantly to the point where it really isn't any of value except as a conversation about 'who's the best at this specific skill'.

[Chr1s1anL]

Please don't compare JV and Ellenson. JV has always been a willing defender. And too often he's been asked to help other players that can't defend their position. Like Demar. If all he was ever asked to do was defend his position he'd have been in much better shape. But Demar has been a seive defensively for most of that time, so what are you gonna do?

Ellenson isn't just hampered defensively because he has not physically matured yet, which is perhaps what you are referencing with JV. Ellenson doesn't seem to be interested in playing defence. He actually gets out of the way. He displays a lack of intensity. Guys like that used to drive me nuts as a player. And it's demoralizing to a team. At least Demar tries, has Heart and a good work ethic. I admit I'm going by DX video of his weaknesses, and other reports. But what I see on that video is unforgivable. I would be in that guy's grill every game. Raptors don't need that drama.

The comparison come from them both being slow footed. Both of them struggling in PnR situations. How are you going to judge intend off a 5 minute video made to highlight his weaknesses. Ellenson is known to be a high motor player. I doubt that motor only runs one side of the ball. He just needs to know where to be and that comes with experience in the league. Which is what JV has ganined over the years.