The feeling of seeing Masai Ujiri doing work in comparison to Bryan Colangelo

[e_wheazhy_]

The feeling of seeing Masai Ujiri doing work in comparison to Bryan Colangelo

Telfair did more in the league than most 2nd round picks. Seen them burned on worst stuff by Colangelo and others. Anyone know how that pick turned out?

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Got traded to Milwaukee as part of the Bledsoe deal, and as the 48th overall pick, was used to select senior G/F Lamar Patterson out of Pittsburgh(who's rights were traded to Atlanta), who has never played in a single NBA game and plays in the Turkish League.

Notable players available at the time of that selection:

Cameron Bairstow
Langston Galloway
Thanasis Antetoukounpo
James Michael McAdoo
Tarik Black

Interesting to note that year we had the 59th pick, acquired from OKC via New York in the Bargs deal, which we used on Xavier Thames, who we promptly "sold" to Brooklyn.

I'd say not a terrible trade...

[ezz_bee]

I clicked, "Masai absolutely knows what he is doing, don't be surprised of his resourcefulness", but "Everything is results based, Masai's smart moves can become nightmares in a blink of an eye...." is also true. At the end of the day though, the second one applies to all gms, whereas smart moves cannot be attributed to all gms.

I believe in Masai... for now.

[Apollo]

Got traded to Milwaukee as part of the Bledsoe deal, and as the 48th overall pick, was used to select senior G/F Lamar Patterson out of Pittsburgh(who's rights were traded to Atlanta), who has never played in a single NBA game and plays in the Turkish League.

Notable players available at the time of that selection:

Cameron Bairstow
Langston Galloway
Thanasis Antetoukounpo
James Michael McAdoo
Tarik Black

Interesting to note that year we had the 59th pick, acquired from OKC via New York in the Bargs deal, which we used on Xavier Thames, who we promptly "sold" to Brooklyn.

I'd say not a terrible trade...

Right. In other words betting against a 2nd round pick is like betting against snow in September. Sure, it'll snow in a freak year, but overall you can keep that winter jacket in storage.

Thanks for putting that together by the way.

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[Primer]

Right. In other words betting against a 2nd round pick is like betting against snow in September. Sure, it'll snow in a freak year, but overall you can keep that winter jacket in storage.

Thanks for putting that together by the way.

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So I guess we just gloss over the fact that the pick was used to facilitate the Bledsoe trade and the deal might not have happened without it? That's a huge part of the value in picks, they can facilitate trades. If a team had a shitty contract they wanted to dump, the asking price is typically, you guessed it, a 2nd round pick. You don't just give them away for half a season of a 3rd string PG in a season where you're playing like shit and have no realistic shot of the playoffs. We would have had two 2nd round picks that year, which could have been packaged to move up a bit in the 2nd round, say two spots to 46 where we could have drafted Jordan Clarkson. You have to look at the bigger picture, trading that pick was fucking dumb for the return we got.

[e_wheazhy_]

Right. In other words betting against a 2nd round pick is like betting against snow in September. Sure, it'll snow in a freak year, but overall you can keep that winter jacket in storage.

Thanks for putting that together by the way.

Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk

Right, its usually safer to bet on an established NBA a player than a late 2nd rounder, most of which never play in the NBA anyways

[Apollo]

So I guess we just gloss over the fact that the pick was used to facilitate the Bledsoe trade and the deal might not have happened without it? That's a huge part of the value in picks, they can facilitate trades. If a team had a shitty contract they wanted to dump, the asking price is typically, you guessed it, a 2nd round pick. You don't just give them away for half a season of a 3rd string PG in a season where you're playing like shit and have no realistic shot of the playoffs. We would have had two 2nd round picks that year, which could have been packaged to move up a bit in the 2nd round, say two spots to 46 where we could have drafted Jordan Clarkson. You have to look at the bigger picture, trading that pick was fucking dumb for the return we got.

You're assuming that the pick was something vital and isn't interchangeable with cash. I mean they can use the cash to buy trash after if they want. I don't think any trade of significance ever was stopped because one team couldn't or wouldn't kick in a 2nd round throw away pick.

Cash spent on picks or used in trades doesn't affect the cap either so that's all up to the discretion of the team. I think you're exaggerating the worth of these picks.

What would be dumb is to not use all the resources at your disposal to try and turn around your team to save your own ass. That's dumb. Nothing matters if you're not even in the game.

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[white men can't jump]

Right, its usually safer to bet on an established NBA a player than a late 2nd rounder, most of which never play in the NBA anyways

Established NBA player? Did I miss something or is this still in reference to Sebastian Telfair?

*It's important not to confuse a guy who's been in the league a lot despite being a fringe (or non) NBA talent with guys who are actually established players who earn/deserve rotation minutes. Telfair has had a long NBA career pretty much entirely because of his hype machine as a high school player. He has never done anything to really earn a spot in an NBA rotation since coming into the league.

[Apollo]

Established NBA player? Did I miss something or is this still in reference to Sebastian Telfair?

He's a guy in the league and for sometime. That's more than you can say about 2nd round throw away picks.

The 2nd round pick couldn't come off the bench and help Colangelo save his job. Some might say neither could Telfair and fair enough but let's keep this all in perspective and what was on the line for the guy making the decisions. Its not so easy to judge when you try to understand what he was dealing with no matter self inflicted or not.

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[white men can't jump]

He's a guy in the league and for sometime. That's more than you can say about 2nd round throw away picks.

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He's a guy in the league who's a terrible PG, has low character, and has never contributed to a winning team as a key piece of a rotation. He essentially should have been a low 2nd rd pick at best, but he was ludicrously overhyped. I have a hard time calling him "established" just because that hype earned him far more years in the league than it should have.

[white men can't jump]

He's a guy in the league and for sometime. That's more than you can say about 2nd round throw away picks.

The 2nd round pick couldn't come off the bench and help Colangelo save his job. Some might say neither could Telfair and fair enough but let's keep this all in perspective and what was on the line for the guy making the decisions. Its not so easy to judge when you try to understand what he was dealing with no matter self inflicted or not.

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Yeah, I find it really funny you use the term "throw away picks" for that 2nd rounder...because Telfair was exactly that his whole career. He'd just keep getting tossed out the door as his team would try to turn him into better assets. Twice that was for 2nd rounders. Other times it was often as a throw-in as part of a package deal (ie exactly the kind of value 2nd rounders tend to have).

[Apollo]

He wasn't terrible but he wasn't good either. What is "hype" really? Do you think a GM and head coach make personnel decisions based on what some agent is pumping up in another part of the league or do they scout players, really look at what they have to offer right now and where they might be able to go with good coaching?

Hype doesn't mean a thing once you've arrived in the league and have some real minutes under your belt. You don't make it to ten seasons because you have a good agent, sorry.

Telfair had legit natural gifts, he just never really tapped into them as was expected. He never worked out but he did flash some of it from time to time.

He essentially should have been a low 2nd rd pick at best

If you told me I was guaranteed to draft a 19 year old who would make it to ten seasons in the second round I'd be ecstatic. If that's your back end of the second round pick at best then my friend you should be part of the Toronto Raptors. They need you now, like today.

[white men can't jump]

He wasn't terrible but he wasn't good either. What is "hype" really? Do you think a GM and head coach make personnel decisions based on what some agent is pumping up in another part of the league or do they scout players, really look at what they have to offer right now and where they might be able to go with good coaching?

Hype doesn't mean a thing once you've arrived in the league and have some real minutes under your belt. You don't make it to ten seasons because you have a good agent, sorry.

First off, at absolutely no point did I bring up agents. So I don't know why you're pulling that into the discussion. There's way more about hype than just what agents spread around the league.

Secondly, Telfair has had pretty much no job security since his 5th season. In other words, he played out his rookie deal, which bought him 4 years in the league. And the team that re-signed him after that, Minny, was in a tight spot because they were bad, and they got him in the Garnett deal. They couldn't already start admitting they got little/nothing out of the deal. They gave him one more year to prove himself, he failed, and they shipped him out of town. So yeah, without the hype coming into the draft and the security bought from being a 1st rd pick, I think it's unlikely Telfair even makes it through those 5 years, nevermind 10.

Considering every GM who acquired him took little time to figure out he brought no real value on the court, and tried to trade him or let him walk, I'd say hype is a very real factor. And part of that is your own bias as an exec/scout. We see it with Masai already a lot. He likes guys and he brings them in to give them a shot. Greivis was one. Carroll is another. Deep bench/training camp pieces like Julyan Stone and Jordan Hamilton.

Guys will give players a shot if they once saw something in a guy, even as far back as their pre-NBA days. Made even worse when a guy is mainly picked up by poorly managed teams (just look at who Telfair has played for). And guys might also believe the hype their trading partner is selling them for misguided reasons (you know, like in this case Colangelo probably buying everything his former friends in PHX were telling him about Telfair being a guy who could help Toronto that season).

*Oh, and yes he was absolutely terrible. He was a negative on both ends of the court. He didn't bring a single NBA level skill to the table as a PG. He couldn't shoot. Couldn't create for himself or others. Couldn't defend. Was undersized. Couldn't control the tempo of the game. Had shit intangibles.

[Apollo]

Alright, this has veered off from my point and I don't care about Telfair regardless. My initial point stands: you do what you have to do to survive.

Flipping a 2nd round pick for a shot in the dark is better than not doing that deal and still being fired. Flipping a 2nd round pick isn't going to rock the boat. Making a major move that signs the team on to big contracts would rock the boat if you're on thin ice.

If I was him I'd have flipped whatever I could get away with if it bought me another year at that high salary and another chance to turn it around. That's me trying to stand in his shoes rather than critique him like this is "The Voice".

[white men can't jump]

Alright, this has veered off from my point and I don't care about Telfair regardless. My initial point stands: you do what you have to do to survive.

Flipping a 2nd round pick for a shot in the dark is better than not doing that deal and still being fired. Flipping a 2nd round pick isn't going to rock the boat. Making a major move that signs the team of to big contracts would rock the boat if you're on thin ice.

Better for Colangelo, maybe. Neutral effect on team in short term since a shit player and a future pick both have no value (and a GM being able to recognize that is a pretty big thing). And a bad effect long-term since you lose an asset (doesn't matter if it's a lower value one, it still has actual value going forward, whereas Telfair did not).

And it could even be negative for the exec. Could make it obvious they're making moves for their own job rather than for the good of the team.

It's ok to trade 2nd rounders for established NBA players. But those are guys who bring some real, NBA rotation-level skill to the table. Again, being able to make the distinction is pretty key for an exec and is one thing that differentiates the good ones from the rest of the herd. I'm much happier with a GM who knows how to turn assets with diminishing value into picks, even 2nd rounders, than the other way around. And I'm pretty sure it's better for the team too.

[magoon]

And part of that is your own bias as an exec/scout. We see it with Masai already a lot. He likes guys and he brings them in to give them a shot. Greivis was one. Carroll is another. Deep bench/training camp pieces like Julyan Stone and Jordan Hamilton.

That having been said, it's clear that Masai is willing to give guys he likes a shot, but he's also not overly sentimental about them. Stone didn't get a re-up after his year. Greivis was traded. Hamilton never made the team. And so forth.

And that's good. Every exec will have guys they like, and some of those choices will be at least a bit irrational or based on the exec's ideas about what the player would become, and some of them will be entirely correct choices (see: Golden State and Draymond Green, for example). The issue is making sure that those choices, when they're wrong, don't harm the organization in the long run - for example, extending Andrea Bargnani.