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OK. Markieff Morris a Raptor? Really??

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  • JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    At some point, DanH offered good evidence that Kieff is a very strong defender.
    It's in DRPM/WAR: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rp...RPM/position/6

    .........................Rank among PF'S ................ DRPM;........... WAR;

    Markieff Morris: ......6 ...............................3.43 ..............9.49
    Patrick Patterson ....33...............................0.34 ..............3.52

    DRPM: Player's estimated on-court impact on team defensive performance, measured in points allowed per 100 defensive possessions

    WAR: The estimated number of team wins attributable to each player, based on RPM

    My take is that, as a bigger and more physical defender, Markieff helps us take on the real obstacles in the East - LeBron, Milsap and co. And that's a big deal. That's why you give up real assets and acknowledge him as a legit starter.

    (Apart from his being a stretch-4 who can create his own shot and produce with high usage).
    Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Wed Aug 19, 2015, 12:29 PM.

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    • ok, is Patterson some sort of superstar in the making? id give up Patterson for markieff in a heartbeat. hes a better player. period. nothing in his game makes me feel like hes someone we need to hold on to.

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      • Axel wrote: View Post
        Well when you say that what I'm saying is incorrect, then proceed to explain points that are not particularly relevant to my point, then yeah, misunderstanding seems applicable.

        Macro Level
        - scorers - neither great scorers, both capable scorers at comparable levels
        - rebounding - neither great at comparable levels
        - defence - neither great at comparable levels

        That is it. No further analysis is necessary since my point was team strengths and weaknesses that would be impacted.

        All of the stylistic things you pointed out are really a micro level analysis (how they score, where they prefer to shot from, etc) and not particularly important to the point I was making. Micro analysis is more to do with fit. In a micro sense they are different styles of players, but that wasn't the point I was making.
        The other question is whether style of play is more on the player, or the coach/system they played under. DC turned PP into a spot-up 3pt shooter, but I personally feel he's a smart enough player to be able to effectively score in other ways. I wonder how DC would use Morris - would he force him into a role/style similar to PP, as he did with Ross when DD was injured last season? DC tends to force players into a pre-determined role for his system, as opposed to purposefully playing to the individual strengths of each player.

        That's in addition to being curious how PP would fare with a USG% similar to Morris.

        I just don't get the point of having PP, MM and Scola on the roster, when JV/BB have the C spot covered and Carroll should see big minutes at SF. Why add a 3rd tier at the PF position, at the expense of the primary backup wing (Ross, per the trade proposal I have been commenting about)? Trading away Ross and JJ would seem even more crazy, as that would leave the team with no legit backup wings (SF/SG) at all.

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        • Wild-ling#1 wrote: View Post
          It's in DRPM/WAR: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rp...RPM/position/6

          .........................Rank among PF'S; DRPM; WAR;

          Markieff Morris: 9 3.43 9.49
          Patrick Patterson 33 0.34 3.52

          DRPM: Player's estimated on-court impact on team defensive performance, measured in points allowed per 100 defensive possessions
          WAR: The estimated number of team wins attributable to each player, based on RPM
          So according to these stats, PPat is about an average defender for a starting PF and MM is above-average to elite. And that's coming from a team in Phoenix that was mediocre defensively last year (although better than we were).

          I also watch quite a lot of Suns games (they're my "western conference team") and you can see that the guy has excellent foot speed for a PF, combined with good size and strength. He guards the pick and roll and post very effectively allowing ~0.78 PPP in those situations (can't find end of the season stats, those are from March article, someone with Synergy help me out lol).

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          • He's no Anthony Davis or Draymond Green.. but is a pretty good defender (2.7 DWS, 3.03 DRPM)

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            • a pretty good defender who also averages 15 and 6 in 31 minutes.!!

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              • My take is that, as a bigger and more physical defender, Markieff helps us take on the real obstacles in the East - LeBron, Milsap and co. And that's a big deal. That's why you give up real assets and acknowledge him as a legit starter.
                Oops, I initially said MM was 9th on the list. He is actually 6th.

                Here's the is a list of PF's above Markieff (6) on the DRPM/WAR ranking (remember Ppat is 33rd):

                1 Anthony Davis.. 2 Paul Millsap.. 3 Tim Duncan.. 4 LaMarcus Aldridge.. 5 Zach Randolph
                Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Wed Aug 19, 2015, 12:27 PM.

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                • Wild-ling#1 wrote: View Post
                  Oops, I initially said MM was 9th on the list. He is actually 6th.

                  Here's the is a list of PF's above Markieff (6) on the DRPM/WAR ranking (remember Ppat is 33rd):

                  1 Anthony Davis 2 Paul Millsap 3 Tim Duncan 4 LaMarcus Aldridge 5 Zach Randolph
                  Interesting that none of those guys really played next to elite shot blocking centers either. Most of them played next to big centers who can stay at home and use their length and size to disrupt shots. Sounds a lot like what JV is capable of doing. Good find.

                  I also like the fact that Kieff is mobile enough to switch onto some 3s, giving us a lot of defensive versatility between him and DC and even DeRozan. (DeRozan on 2/3, DC on 2/3/4, Kieff on 3/4)

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                  • JWash wrote: View Post
                    Point is it increases the talent level of the team.

                    Scola is going to get minutes at backup center anyway (kind of like Amir did). I really don't expect Biyombo to play a lot under Casey.

                    There's no redundancy between MM and PPat. They're as different as DeMar and Klay Thompson.
                    Actually, there can be a point where too much depth does become a problem for a team when not managed properly. Especially when there isn't a clear talent level gap between of players who play similar positions. You get bench guys who feel they should be starting over the current guy and guys who are playing rarely wanting minutes to prove they are still NBA guys. These players (and their agents) have limited time windows to capitalize on their profession, so it's pretty easy to become disgruntled.

                    You mentioned off-hand that Biyombo won't be getting any minutes, which sounds like a simple solution to an overcrowded PF spot, yet B-Smack is still a young player entering the prime of his career on a below market contract. Would you expect that BB (and his agent) are going to be thrilled that he will have no opportunity to prove his worth his next contract? I would question a player with talent who wouldn't be disgruntled. Gotta remember that these players are real people, with families, etc...

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                    • JWash wrote: View Post
                      Interesting that none of those guys really played next to elite shot blocking centers either. Most of them played next to big centers who can stay at home and use their length and size to disrupt shots. Sounds a lot like what JV is capable of doing. Good find.

                      I also like the fact that Kieff is mobile enough to switch onto some 3s, giving us a lot of defensive versatility between him and DC and even DeRozan. (DeRozan on 2/3, DC on 2/3/4, Kieff on 3/4)
                      Yes. Exactly. But with a good stretch-4 team defender (Markieff, who can cover some 3's) and a stretch-3 team defender (Carroll, who can cover some 4's) - bring on the "beasts of the east" (LeBron, Milsap, etc.).
                      Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Wed Aug 19, 2015, 12:46 PM.

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                      • golden wrote: View Post
                        Actually, there can be a point where too much depth does become a problem for a team when not managed properly. Especially when there isn't a clear talent level gap between of players who play similar positions. You get bench guys who feel they should be starting over the current guy and guys who are playing rarely wanting minutes to prove they are still NBA guys. These players (and their agents) have limited time windows to capitalize on their profession, so it's pretty easy to become disgruntled.

                        You mentioned off-hand that Biyombo won't be getting any minutes, which sounds like a simple solution to an overcrowded PF spot, yet B-Smack is still a young player entering the prime of his career on a below market contract. Would you expect that BB (and his agent) are going to be thrilled that he will have no opportunity to prove his worth his next contract? I would question a player with talent who wouldn't be disgruntled. Gotta remember that these players are real people, with families, etc...
                        Bismack is a back-up center "plus"-defender, I believe. His competition is Bebe, mainly. And most expect Bebe to be in the D-league.
                        Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Wed Aug 19, 2015, 01:10 PM.

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                        • golden wrote: View Post
                          Actually, there can be a point where too much depth does become a problem for a team when not managed properly. Especially when there isn't a clear talent level gap between of players who play similar positions. You get bench guys who feel they should be starting over the current guy and guys who are playing rarely wanting minutes to prove they are still NBA guys. These players (and their agents) have limited time windows to capitalize on their profession, so it's pretty easy to become disgruntled.

                          You mentioned off-hand that Biyombo won't be getting any minutes, which sounds like a simple solution to an overcrowded PF spot, yet B-Smack is still a young player entering the prime of his career on a below market contract. Would you expect that BB (and his agent) are going to be thrilled that he will have no opportunity to prove his worth his next contract? I would question a player with talent who wouldn't be disgruntled. Gotta remember that these players are real people, with families, etc...
                          I don't see why this would be much different from the situation in Denver in 2012-13 when they won 57 games in the west (flamed out early in the playoffs due to a tough matchup and missing a top player in Gallo). They had their core 3-4 guys (Ty, Iggy, Gallo, Faried like our Lowry, DD, JV, DC) and then a bunch of talented players who comprised the last piece of the starting 5 and also a really, really strong bench.

                          Obviously it's not a title contender, but guys are still getting an opportunity to play and there are a lot of different looks that you can throw at opposing teams. I don't see the reason not to add a talent like Markieff assuming the cost would only be Ross+Bebe like suggested.

                          Tbh if either Scola or Biyombo don't get a ton of run, I'm not seeing a huge issue. Scola is 35, close to retirement and not a long-term solution for us. Biyombo only played 19 and 13 minutes the last 2 years on some pretty mediocre Charlotte teams.
                          Last edited by JWash; Wed Aug 19, 2015, 12:47 PM.

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                          • JWash wrote: View Post
                            I don't see why this would be much different from the situation in Denver in 2012-13 when they won 57 games in the west (flamed out early in the playoffs due to a tough matchup and missing a top player in Gallo). They had their core 3-4 guys (Ty, Iggy, Gallo, Faried like our Lowry, DD, JV, DC) and then a bunch of talented players who comprised the last piece of the starting 5 and also a really, really strong bench.

                            Obviously it's not a title contender, but guys are still getting an opportunity to play and there are a lot of different looks that you can throw at opposing teams. I don't see the reason not to add a talent like Markieff assuming the cost would only be Ross+Bebe like suggested.

                            Tbh if either Scola or Biyombo don't get a ton of run, I'm not seeing a huge issue. Scola is 35, close to retirement and not a long-term solution for us. Biyombo only played 19 and 13 minutes the last 2 years on some pretty mediocre Charlotte teams.
                            Why so sure it's not a contender? I think it's a contender in the east, at least. On paper.

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                            • Not trying to stir the pot here but...

                              Go on BREF and run Kieff's 2013-14 season against Millsaps 2014-15 year.

                              http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

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                              • Guys, how many years are we gonna continue to come out of off-season saying "yea well I'd rather wait to get a better power forward." This is what, the 3rd or 4th season saying this? At some point, people need to take off the rose-coloured glasses and realize a superstar (heck just all star) power forward isn't going to plop into our laps.

                                As much as I loved hearing Aldridge took a meeting with us, it doesn't mean ish if he doesn't choose to come here. When you have a good player who is better than the person you currently have at that position saying they want to come here, as the Raptors you should go for it.

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