OK. Markieff Morris a Raptor? Really??

[mcHAPPY]

That's the point Morris has 4 more years at slightly more than 2Pats

And you missed my point.

He is an extra $1.4M next season.

He is an extra $8M in 2017.


Millions count in free agency.

This team has enough role players.

Morris is a role player.

[raptors999]

And you missed my point.

He is an extra $1.4M next season.

He is an extra $8M in 2017.


Millions count in free agency.

This team has enough role players.

Morris is a role player.

If you want to free space then 2Pats is better but in a couple seasons it'll be hard to sign anyone at 8M that can play good minutes.

[mcHAPPY]

If you want to free space then 2Pats is better but in a couple seasons it'll be hard to sign anyone at 8M that can play good minutes.

You would have max cap space available.

You can find someone better than Morris.... even at his $8M.


I have my sights set high. No more Colangelo thinking trying to plug a hole here or there because it is best option available right now. That strategy means when really good options do come along, you have to sit on the sidelines and watch the big boys play. Masai didn't get Aldridge but he got a sit down. That is something to build on.

[JawsGT]

I'm a little confused. I thought it was shown some pages back that acquiring Kieff would not affect next years cap space, but now the last few pages suggests it is. So basically, if we acquired Morris, we would have to make trades to get max space in 2016 FA. If we don't, we can just renounce rights to our own free agents to get max space? Is this correct?

Also, nice to see Raps fans that have argued against relying on free agency as a building tool now acknowledge the possibility that we have a chance at free agents, even top tier ones...In Masai we Trust!!

[mcHAPPY]

I'm a little confused. I thought it was shown some pages back that acquiring Kieff would not affect next years cap space, but now the last few pages suggests it is. So basically, if we acquired Morris, we would have to make trades to get max space in 2016 FA. If we don't, we can just renounce rights to our own free agents to get max space? Is this correct?

Also, nice to see Raps fans that have argued against relying on free agency as a building tool now acknowledge the possibility that we have a chance at free agents, even top tier ones...In Masai we Trust!!

It depends who you trade.

But if you trade the lowest cost players, Ross and Bebe, you then lose a backup C and have limited means to get another (top up, minimum, draft pick) next season.

[Primer]

I agree. The discussion has to revert to how good he is. And there's room for interpretation/speculation. But the reaction around the league is not "ho-hum, this guy's unhappy ... nothing to see here" (and I don't think it's mere salaciousness ... or off-season hype.)

Anyway, doesn't a careful read of your own post raise a pretty clear inference that Morris is either the same ... or better? It was Dan who said he's a near-elite defender (by the numbers). His offensive game is not identical ... but it's easy to argue he's more well-rounded, offensively. And he has started in the Western Conference. Seems, at worse, talent- and money-wise a no-risk flip. For a more-well-rounded, proven (young) player. With more up-side.

If this is argumentative or superfluous, I apologize. The suspense is killing me.

But remember - Masai can end that suspense with just a few nearly innocuous words. When there are a lot of things going on in the trade market, his silence is inscrutable. When there's really only one deal on the Raptors horizon ...?

No guarantees. But I think he's workin' it.

There's no betting thread yet. But anybody want to "bet" against me that, after the smoke clears, Masai has either signed him - or concedes he had (how will he put it) "some" interest? "Preliminary talks"?

Think he's just messin' with Patterson's mind?

Yes, basically it's a coin flip. Both have things their better at then the other, and neither is a high caliber starting PF.

Personally, I don't think he's an elite defender, I think he's average. DRtg says he's average (he's tied for 136th out of 299 players that played more than 1000 minutes), and I think DRtg does a pretty good job of rating a players defense.

ORtg is more of an offensive efficiency stat, and big men tend to excel at it. Big men other than Markieff Morris that is, who posted a dismal 102 ORtg, tied for 231st out of 299. His first two years he posted even lower 97 and 96 ORtg. He did post a decent 111 ORtg the year before last year, which would have had him tied for 84th this year.

I also wouldn't say he's more well rounded offensively. Morris likes to post up and shoot the mid range shot. Patterson like to pick and pop and shoot 3's. Patterson had a good TS% of .568 wheras Morris had poor TS% of .523, and Patterson had a much better 122 ORtg.

They are basically identical at rebounding, both a bit below average for their position. They are also almost the same age, less than year apart. I'd say they have identical upside, or maybe Patterson's is higher because he hasn't gotten a starting opportunity yet.

The fact Morris started in the West on a team without any other legitimate options at his position doesn't move the needle one way or the other for me.

Most of Morris hype is built around some high scoring games he had. He also had lots of low scoring games. I'm just don't think he's good enough to give up anything for when we already have Patterson.

[DanH]

I'm a little confused. I thought it was shown some pages back that acquiring Kieff would not affect next years cap space, but now the last few pages suggests it is. So basically, if we acquired Morris, we would have to make trades to get max space in 2016 FA. If we don't, we can just renounce rights to our own free agents to get max space? Is this correct?

Also, nice to see Raps fans that have argued against relying on free agency as a building tool now acknowledge the possibility that we have a chance at free agents, even top tier ones...In Masai we Trust!!

Yeah, it depends on who you trade. If you deal Patterson AND one or two of our prospects/picks for Kief, you retain the cap room. But at that point you are not really buying low, you are just consolidating the cost into one transaction, rather than buying low now and paying assets to move him later.

As for free agency, if given the choice I would still tear this thing down, but that clearly isn't happening. So I revert to the other methods of acquiring superstar talent, which this team still needs.

[Mapko]

Morris absolutely will impact flexibility in the future.

1) If you trade Bebe and Patterson for him, you don't have a back up C after next season nor do you have a back up PF.

2) If you trade Ross and Bebe, you don't have a back up C after next season.


In scenario 1, you also have a cap hold for the lost player in 2 for 1 deal so the cap space about even.

In scenario 2, you are now down about $5M in cap space in 2017 (and you still don't have a back up C).


So while I will admit flexibility is maintained to acquire a max 7-9 year FA in 2016, but depth is lost. And flexibility for 2017 is hindered.



....And then there is the whole issue of Morris fit relative to PP.



As for the CONSTANT references to KD at the 4 - it isn't going to happen. He might have length to do it but he is coming off quite an injury in his foot. Banging and crashing is a great way to get him looking elsewhere. Even Basketball-Reference.com lists him as a SF/SG. I understand most posters are clinging to the idea that the lineup would be KL/DD/KD/DC/JV but that is not going to happen either.... unless DD opts in to his player option or he signs for top up exception or minimum.

Trading PP (& TRoss or Bebe or...?) OR Ross & Bebe for MM would (maybe) increase our cap in 2016 by 2-5 mil.
So according to your math we would have 7-9 mil (or 12-14 mil if we do nothing) for a max FA. You really think that will get us Durant or Horford or Ibaka for that amount?
Your option 1 -has negligible effect on cap in 2016.
I did very rough math -with that trade our salary would be ~65 mil (plus Demar cap hold of around 15 mil -Total 80 mil);
Assume a cap of 89 mil -that leaves around 9 mil for FAs.
Trade Morris (prob easier than you think for Masai -remember 20 plus teams will be over 800 mil UNDER the cap).
Enter Durant @25 mil, resign Demar for 25 mil -Our total 90 mil (for 5 starters).
If luxury tax 105-110 mil -that leaves 15-20 mil for bench (Bebe, Bruno, Powel, 2 1st next year...)
You are correct -it would require some juggling, just as it would have been required if we do not trade for Morris now.
You still want to go till 2017 with 2Pat & Scola as your 4 if you have a chance (good) to get Morris now, as opposed to wait till 2017 to get (maybe) Griffin, Ibaka or Mirotic?
Id take my chances in 2015-16 with Kyle, Demar, Carrolle, Morris & Val as my starters. Bench will take care of itself (CoJo, 2 firsts, Bebe, Bruno, Powell, Wright...) & plenty of other Vets that want to play for a solid playoff team.
If Durant or Horford or Ibaka (all upgrades) were to get interested in playing for us, I's sure Masai will be able to move some bodies & accommodate them.

[Mapko]

And you missed my point.

He is an extra $1.4M next season.

He is an extra $8M in 2017.


Millions count in free agency.

This team has enough role players.

Morris is a role player.

So what happens in 2017?
2Pat is a FA & we only have 5-10 mil to sign starting 4 (at that time we can assume Demar & Ross are resigned for 28-30 mil combined).
You have 2 choices:
1. Hope somebody takes a mid level or veterans minimum or
2. Give 2Pat 15 plus mil (or whatever he wants) since he knows we are over the cap & CANNOT sign anybody over mid level. You don't think we wont have to pay that much? You think Tristan T is worth 80-90 mil? Fat chance if Cavs were under the cap. He & his agent know they have Cavs by the balls.
3. (another option) -Get Morris (certainly an average starter at least) now & no issues in 2017.

[mcHAPPY]

Trading PP (& TRoss or Bebe or...?) OR Ross & Bebe for MM would (maybe) increase our cap in 2016 by 2-5 mil.
So according to your math we would have 7-9 mil (or 12-14 mil if we do nothing) for a max FA. You really think that will get us Durant or Horford or Ibaka for that amount?
Your option 1 -has negligible effect on cap in 2016.
I did very rough math -with that trade our salary would be ~65 mil (plus Demar cap hold of around 15 mil -Total 80 mil);
Assume a cap of 89 mil -that leaves around 9 mil for FAs.
Trade Morris (prob easier than you think for Masai -remember 20 plus teams will be over 800 mil UNDER the cap).
Enter Durant @25 mil, resign Demar for 25 mil -Our total 90 mil (for 5 starters).
If luxury tax 105-110 mil -that leaves 15-20 mil for bench (Bebe, Bruno, Powel, 2 1st next year...)
You are correct -it would require some juggling, just as it would have been required if we do not trade for Morris now.
You still want to go till 2017 with 2Pat & Scola as your 4 if you have a chance (good) to get Morris now, as opposed to wait till 2017 to get (maybe) Griffin, Ibaka or Mirotic?
Id take my chances in 2015-16 with Kyle, Demar, Carrolle, Morris & Val as my starters. Bench will take care of itself (CoJo, 2 firsts, Bebe, Bruno, Powell, Wright...) & plenty of other Vets that want to play for a solid playoff team.
If Durant or Horford or Ibaka (all upgrades) were to get interested in playing for us, I's sure Masai will be able to move some bodies & accommodate them.

No offense, but I can't follow the numbers as you've displayed them.

All you need to know is to sign Horford or Durant you need to renounce ALL free agents (DD, JJ, TR, LS and Biyombo needs to opt out) OR you need to trade a starter or gut your bench to keep DD.

Masai's goal, when looking at desire to sit down with Aldridge in July and the numbers on all the contracts signed this summer with how they work with future years, seems to be pretty clear that he wants to have ability to go after max free agents.

More importantly he wants to go after max free agents with a solid TEAM already in place.

A TEAM is not a bunch of high usage, low efficiency chuckers or a team made up of guys who have a high scoring average on high field goal attempts.


Any juggling required is already done. It is not going to be messed with now.

[mcHAPPY]

So what happens in 2017?
2Pat is a FA & we only have 5-10 mil to sign starting 4 (at that time we can assume Demar & Ross are resigned for 28-30 mil combined).
You have 2 choices:
1. Hope somebody takes a mid level or veterans minimum or
2. Give 2Pat 15 plus mil (or whatever he wants) since he knows we are over the cap & CANNOT sign anybody over mid level. You don't think we wont have to pay that much? You think Tristan T is worth 80-90 mil? Fat chance if Cavs were under the cap. He & his agent know they have Cavs by the balls.
3. (another option) -Get Morris (certainly an average starter at least) now & no issues in 2017.

Are you Marcus? lol


There are a lot more than 2 (or 3) choices for 2017.


Look how far Masai has come in just 2 years. It is scary to think what might happen in 2 more.


Morris' best season came as a reserve. He is a below average starter based on WS/48. A high WS/48 is a common denominator among most of Ujiri's signings and acquisitions.

[JawsGT]

Ok, Patterson, Bebe, and a pick for example does seem a little steep to me, and I would agree that is certainly not buying low. And that is the goal in this situation, to get value out of the deal and still while maintaining cap space for a max pitch next offseason. Ross, bebe and a non lotto pick is borderline too, but i'd do that cause you get good PF for Ross and two players that aren't even contributing to beef up a position of need. And we'd have that position locked up for two seasons at $14M per, that's great value. But if that deal doesn't give us the room to make a max pitch, I'm not sure I'd do it then.

Honestly, I highly doubt we land a durant-ish level player, it's impossible for me to conceive it happening, but I do believe you have to try occasionally and it's good to see management with the confidance to believe they can make something like that happen and I think it has spread to the fanbase after resigning Lowry, landing Carroll and getting a sit-down with Aldridge. at least there is some reason to be optimistic about free agency and not completely rule it out as a means to acquire top tier talent anymore.

[Mapko]

Are you Marcus? lol


There are a lot more than 2 (or 3) choices for 2017.


Look how far Masai has come in just 2 years. It is scary to think what might happen in 2 more.


Morris' best season came as a reserve. He is a below average starter based on WS/48. A high WS/48 is a common denominator among most of Ujiri's signings and acquisitions.

I'm not Marcus;

I am definitely not going to argue that (see bold). Heck I wont even question Masai keeping Casey.
No, I dont think Casey is a great coach. But I have faith that MU knows a lot more about BBall than I, so if he says Casey is our best choice FOR NOW, then so be it.
Thibs was supposed to be defensive genius. Was he?
Team with Butler (an elite defender), Noah (DPOY 2 years ago), Gibson & only slightly better than us on D? Is that possible? Maybe Thibs is not any better than "stiff" Casey.

As for 2Pat vs Morris debate: We clearly disagree.
IMO, Morris offers a lot more of upside (much better defender, better post player, more durable, played as a starter in tougher Westerns conference, signed to a team friendly contract for next 4 years)
Con side (no pun intended): 2Pat advantages:we know who he is (clean nose), better spot up shooter, blends well with team, slightly cheaper;
Wash: Same age, both on reasonable & probably easily trad-able contracts, Durable.
A question of opinion, I suppose. This is is one of the very few times I don't agree with you.
In Masai we will have to trust.

[mcHAPPY]

I'm not Marcus;

I am definitely not going to argue that (see bold). Heck I wont even question Masai keeping Casey.
No, I dont think Casey is a great coach. But I have faith that MU knows a lot more about BBall than I, so if he says Casey is our best choice FOR NOW, then so be it.
Thibs was supposed to be defensive genius. Was he?
Team with Butler (an elite defender), Noah (DPOY 2 years ago), Gibson & only slightly better than us on D? Is that possible? Maybe Thibs is not any better than "stiff" Casey.

As for 2Pat vs Morris debate: We clearly disagree.
IMO, Morris offers a lot more of upside (much better defender, better post player, more durable, played as a starter in tougher Westerns conference, signed to a team friendly contract for next 4 years)
Con side (no pun intended): 2Pat advantages:we know who he is (clean nose), better spot up shooter, blends well with team, slightly cheaper;
Wash: Same age, both on reasonable & probably easily trad-able contracts, Durable.
A question of opinion, I suppose. This is is one of the very few times I don't agree with you.
In Masai we will have to trust.

Marcus comment was a joke - please hope no offense taken.

Disagreement is good! Gives something to discuss!

[Mapko]

Marcus comment was a joke - please hope no offense taken.

Disagreement is good! Gives something to discuss!

Please. No offence taken.
I really DID NOT want to respond & thus prove my wife right (that I have to have a last word in any argument/discussion).
So please, post ANYTHING in response to this.

WRT to 'disagreements" & discussion, you are absolutely correct.
a-Discussion is good;
b-We have a solid team that we all care and are passionate about;
Take care.