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  • I think chances are slim, Toronto will be able to pry Durant from OKC or his hometown of Washington. It does not mean they shouldn't try to get him but if you are throwing your hat in the ring you best make yourself a more attractive destination. How do you do so? Well you better at the very least get to the Eastern Conference finals in the Playoffs, any less then that and I don't believe KD will even look at you.

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    • JWash wrote: View Post
      Ok so you acknowledge the other options, that was my point. And no trading some of the bench would not be difficult because teams are going to be trying to reach the cap floor of ~81M if they don't want to spend heavily on free agents.
      Yes gutting the roster is an option. I think it's a terrible one though and it would likely greatly adverse our chances of landing any free agents.

      Isn't the appeal for someone to sign here that we have talent across the board with starters and bench talent set to surround the free agent?

      Gutting the roster to accommodate that signing would negate that appeal and rely solely on factors like:
      - wants to play for franchise/city
      - wants to play with a specific player
      - falls under Masai's spell

      Any time you are dumping salary, you usually need to give up picks to do so. So you're willing to give up depth, picks and at least 1 current starter just because Markieff Morris?
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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      • JWash wrote: View Post
        Is it actually going to be that hard to dump salary in a trade next year if need be? Even this year, the Suns only had to attach a 2020 2nd round to dump salary on the Pistons. Yeah the Kings got fleeced... but they're also the Kings...

        There are going to be quite a few bad/mediocre teams next year who will have a lot of room to take on salary to reach the cap floor. I don't think you'd have to sell the farm to dump actually solid role players on fair deals on these teams. Just my opinion though.
        It's like you guys don't read. The Suns did not have to dump salary. They hadn't gotten anyone to sign. They hoped to get Aldridge. We could similarly dump Morris next summer at little cost, before Durant agrees to go anywhere.

        Again... I'll try to say it again. If the player agrees to sign, every other GM will smell blood, because at that point we HAVE to shed salary. Prices will be very high to do so, unless a truly good player is outgoing (say, Kyle Lowry or JV). Morris does not fit that group of top assets yet, there will be a cost to moving him - especially with the stigma of players with attitude, which reduces the number of teams that would even bid, meaning they can set their prices even higher to take him.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • Re: the Rolls Royce vs Audi analogy. It's not applicable. These are not isolated markets. Imagine you agreed to buy the Rolls. But in your purchase contract, it stipulates that you MUST sell the Audi. And also imagine that there are a limited number of places you can sell the Audi, AND that every one of those places knows that you have that must-sell clause in the contract you signed. You think you are getting market value for your Audi?

          Now imagine that half of these dealers have their eyes set on nicer cars to spend their money on, and won't even consider your Audi until the market settles (by which time your purchase of the Rolls will need to be complete). And that another chunk of them don't like the risks attached to buying an Audi (as Audi's have been known to be temperamental and their owners are forced to sell just to save themselves the trouble).
          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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          • Ouch. Not Applicable? Okay, duelling absolutes, it is ...

            1. There will be no "stipulation", or absolute necessity, for the Raptors to trade MM if they sign an elite player. So I'm not going to "imagine" one. Remember, that's IF. And if they're into the luxury tax, they'd be a first offender, and Markieff's contract is small-ish. And MM would still be valuable to the Raptors. And a lot of teams' perspectives change when they think they've become a championship contender. And I think that if they get a premiere FA to go with DD, KL, DC, MM, JV, the rest and (insert name here) - that's what they'd be. Not a championship team, maybe ...but a contender? Yup.

            2. Your "half the market" and then a "chunk of the market" and then "another chunk" language insinuates, to me, that there might be only - what - 2 or 3 teams? One? Zero teams interested in MM - a legit, cheap, starting power forward, in 2016? And even if there were (which I think very unlikely), only a handful interested, I think they can still get reasonable value for this guy.

            3. I think the "blood-in-the-water", there's "pressure to move him" factor, such as it might be, will likeley be off-set by the "musical chairs" pressure of the free agent moratorium period, generally. When the music stops, teams can be left with nothing. Nothing but a bag full of cash. Which (in a 90% cap-floor world), is cold-comfort at best - and sort of less than nothing, really - in that it's really a bag full of embarrassment. Failure. There aren't enough "elites" to go around ... while, as we've just seen, there's a relentless pressure to do something to get a guy to improve your roster.

            Personally, I think the Audi analogy is applicable (though not perfectly) and your arguments, while relevant (I won't say "irrelevant" ... not true) are over-stated. Unnecessarily pessimistic.

            Live a little Dan: As Hemingway said: The Sun Also Rises
            Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Mon Aug 24, 2015, 11:37 AM.

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            • Axel wrote: View Post
              Yes gutting the roster is an option. I think it's a terrible one though and it would likely greatly adverse our chances of landing any free agents.

              Isn't the appeal for someone to sign here that we have talent across the board with starters and bench talent set to surround the free agent?

              Gutting the roster to accommodate that signing would negate that appeal and rely solely on factors like:
              - wants to play for franchise/city
              - wants to play with a specific player
              - falls under Masai's spell

              Any time you are dumping salary, you usually need to give up picks to do so. So you're willing to give up depth, picks and at least 1 current starter just because Markieff Morris?
              Disagree entirely.

              I think the smartest move is to retain as many high end talents as possible and then add depth via shrewd veteran signings, smart draft picks and good trades. That's the Spurs model. You pay what you need to for your main guys, but you don't spend huge on your bench. Very possible to still have a dangerous bench without spending a ton of money on it. The Spurs do it every single year.

              The appeal for a FA to sign is not the "bench", it's the high end guys. Kevin Love didn't demand a trade to Cleveland because he had Tristan Thompson backing him up, he signed there to play with LeBron James and Kyrie Irving. Bench depth is the easiest thing to add in the NBA, the high end talent is what's difficult to acquire.

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              • DanH wrote: View Post
                It's like you guys don't read. The Suns did not have to dump salary. They hadn't gotten anyone to sign. They hoped to get Aldridge. We could similarly dump Morris next summer at little cost, before Durant agrees to go anywhere.

                Again... I'll try to say it again. If the player agrees to sign, every other GM will smell blood, because at that point we HAVE to shed salary. Prices will be very high to do so, unless a truly good player is outgoing (say, Kyle Lowry or JV). Morris does not fit that group of top assets yet, there will be a cost to moving him - especially with the stigma of players with attitude, which reduces the number of teams that would even bid, meaning they can set their prices even higher to take him.
                I read just fine I just don't agree with what you're saying. I only think that kind of high cost for dumping players would arise when the players you're trading are useless/bad and/or you have an incompetent or mediocre front office. The Spurs traded Tiago Splitter on the Hawks while giving up nothing else in order to free up room for LMA, when everyone and their mama knew he was going to sign there. Yeah, maybe Atlanta wanted Tiago but who's to say no one would want Markieff at his salary and production?

                Anyway I think this might be a moot discussion since the MM rumor-mill has kind of dried up so I don't think we'll be trading for him. However we do have Masai as our GM, so really there could be a trade on the table for Durant and we wouldn't know.

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                • There is every reason reason for the Suns to have protracted trade-talks about Morris. Most Phoenix media take the view that they should wait him out, hope for things to cool and that he'll play - do anything but quickly de-value a significant, long-term asset.

                  But bargaining publicly can't help. Not here. So I expect nothing to leak ... until there's a deal. But unless Morris behaves in an exemplary, professional fashion and speaks/acts decisively to quell the notion of there being any tension, there will be talk of nothing else in Phoenix until he moves. A terrible distraction and instability. A real mess.

                  So I expect a deal before the season starts. The Raps are pretty well-positioned. I wish I could say he'll be coming. But a deal could come out of nowhere. Suspenseful.

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                  • DanH wrote: View Post
                    It's like you guys don't read. The Suns did not have to dump salary. They hadn't gotten anyone to sign. They hoped to get Aldridge. We could similarly dump Morris next summer at little cost, before Durant agrees to go anywhere.

                    Again... I'll try to say it again. If the player agrees to sign, every other GM will smell blood, because at that point we HAVE to shed salary. Prices will be very high to do so, unless a truly good player is outgoing (say, Kyle Lowry or JV). Morris does not fit that group of top assets yet, there will be a cost to moving him - especially with the stigma of players with attitude, which reduces the number of teams that would even bid, meaning they can set their prices even higher to take him.
                    A perfect example of this is San Antonio sending Splitter to Atlanta for nothing in return to make space for Aldridge. Splitter is a very valuable player on a great contrat, if he was traded in a regular situation he would be able to bring back a nice return. Instead San Antonio got jack shit. I don't want to put ourselves in that situation with Morris who isn't even for sure better than Patterson.

                    Seems the main point of contention in this whole thread is exactly how good is Markieff Morris? 3 out of his 4 years in the league he's had a below average to terrible ORtg, including last season. His DRtg is always around 105, which is average. He's borderline starting caliber in my book. Patterson has had a great ORtg every season since 2011-12, and his career DRtg is 108. He is also borderline starting caliber. I just don't buy the notion that Markieff is way better than Patterson so the move is a no brainer. It seems highly debatable whether Morris is better, and he sure as hell isn't an elite PF, so the trade doesn't make sense to me.

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                    • Primer wrote: View Post
                      A perfect example of this is San Antonio sending Splitter to Atlanta for nothing in return to make space for Aldridge. Splitter is a very valuable player on a great contrat, if he was traded in a regular situation he would be able to bring back a nice return. Instead San Antonio got jack shit. I don't want to put ourselves in that situation with Morris who isn't even for sure better than Patterson.

                      Seems the main point of contention in this whole thread is exactly how good is Markieff Morris? 3 out of his 4 years in the league he's had a below average to terrible ORtg, including last season. His DRtg is always around 105, which is average. He's borderline starting caliber in my book. Patterson has had a great ORtg every season since 2011-12, and his career DRtg is 108. He is also borderline starting caliber. I just don't buy the notion that Markieff is way better than Patterson so the move is a no brainer. It seems highly debatable whether Morris is better, and he sure as hell isn't an elite PF, so the trade doesn't make sense to me.
                      I agree. The discussion has to revert to how good he is. And there's room for interpretation/speculation. But the reaction around the league is not "ho-hum, this guy's unhappy ... nothing to see here" (and I don't think it's mere salaciousness ... or off-season hype.)

                      Anyway, doesn't a careful read of your own post raise a pretty clear inference that Morris is either the same ... or better? It was Dan who said he's a near-elite defender (by the numbers). His offensive game is not identical ... but it's easy to argue he's more well-rounded, offensively. And he has started in the Western Conference. Seems, at worse, talent- and money-wise a no-risk flip. For a more-well-rounded, proven (young) player. With more up-side.

                      If this is argumentative or superfluous, I apologize. The suspense is killing me.

                      But remember - Masai can end that suspense with just a few nearly innocuous words. When there are a lot of things going on in the trade market, his silence is inscrutable. When there's really only one deal on the Raptors horizon ...?

                      No guarantees. But I think he's workin' it.

                      There's no betting thread yet. But anybody want to "bet" against me that, after the smoke clears, Masai has either signed him - or concedes he had (how will he put it) "some" interest? "Preliminary talks"?

                      Think he's just messin' with Patterson's mind?
                      Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Mon Aug 24, 2015, 02:08 PM.

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                      • Primer wrote: View Post
                        A perfect example of this is San Antonio sending Splitter to Atlanta for nothing in return to make space for Aldridge. Splitter is a very valuable player on a great contrat, if he was traded in a regular situation he would be able to bring back a nice return. Instead San Antonio got jack shit. I don't want to put ourselves in that situation with Morris who isn't even for sure better than Patterson.

                        Seems the main point of contention in this whole thread is exactly how good is Markieff Morris? 3 out of his 4 years in the league he's had a below average to terrible ORtg, including last season. His DRtg is always around 105, which is average. He's borderline starting caliber in my book. Patterson has had a great ORtg every season since 2011-12, and his career DRtg is 108. He is also borderline starting caliber. I just don't buy the notion that Markieff is way better than Patterson so the move is a no brainer. It seems highly debatable whether Morris is better, and he sure as hell isn't an elite PF, so the trade doesn't make sense to me.
                        Patterson is the better fit and the better contract.

                        You take JV on this team and put in a player like DeAndre Jordan, then yeah, Morris would be awesome.

                        As it is, Raps have a better post up option and a ball dominant backcourt.

                        Morris don't fit y'all....unless you want to bring him off the bench!

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                        • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                          Patterson is the better fit and the better contract.

                          You take JV on this team and put in a player like DeAndre Jordan, then yeah, Morris would be awesome.

                          As it is, Raps have a better post up option and a ball dominant backcourt.

                          Morris don't fit y'all....unless you want to bring him off the bench!
                          MM is more expensive but signed longer than 2Pats. Even if they aren't vastly different MM contract is better

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                          • JWash wrote: View Post
                            Disagree entirely.

                            I think the smartest move is to retain as many high end talents as possible and then add depth via shrewd veteran signings, smart draft picks and good trades. That's the Spurs model. You pay what you need to for your main guys, but you don't spend huge on your bench. Very possible to still have a dangerous bench without spending a ton of money on it. The Spurs do it every single year.

                            The appeal for a FA to sign is not the "bench", it's the high end guys. Kevin Love didn't demand a trade to Cleveland because he had Tristan Thompson backing him up, he signed there to play with LeBron James and Kyrie Irving. Bench depth is the easiest thing to add in the NBA, the high end talent is what's difficult to acquire.
                            that is so not the spurs model, the spurs have been fortunate enough to have great players that fit incredibly well together and then have those players take smaller amounts to keep adding into it.

                            And the spurs have added pieces based on overall fit for years. You never see them going after a demar, cause they have guys like Green who fill a role.

                            Parker will go down as one of the greatest PGs of all time, but put him on another team, away from TD for his entire career and I dont think you are saying the same thing about him.

                            Pretty Sure SAS' bench this season is sitting at just shy of 25 million.

                            By comparison our bench is sitting at about 24 million.

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                            • raptors999 wrote: View Post
                              MM is more expensive but signed longer than 2Pats. Even if they aren't vastly different MM contract is better
                              That is your opinion.

                              When trying to be a player in 2016 free agency market and 2017, I would imagine PP has more appeal.

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                              • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                                That is your opinion.

                                When trying to be a player in 2016 free agency market and 2017, I would imagine PP has more appeal.
                                That's the point Morris has 4 more years at slightly more than 2Pats

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