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Thread: Hedo's Story From One of His Fans

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Vellassco's Avatar
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    Default Hedo's Story From One of His Fans

    Hello Guys,

    I thought too much before i decide to write this mess. After i saw thibis, who is one of my favorite poster in here, wrote he would cry when he realized Hedo is going to be wearing Raptor's uniform for extra 4 years, sorry i couldn't stop myself to write this. I don't know how do i express myself with my limited vocabulary and with broken grammar especially in RR in which lots of quality members shows themselves with their deep/quality posts. After jumping up from RF to RR, Having terrible English is giving me more pain and make me more depressed. Thank you guyz. Sorry from know for this garbage. You are free to skip it if you like.

    I'll start the story with nowadays Raptor's agenda: Draft Pick. I know majority of you are lowering your expectations from your 13th 1st round pick, but i suggest you not to lower too much. Hedo was 16th pick when he was selected by Sac Town. Before he knocked the NBA door he was already a star and very well know player all over Europe with his success on his former team, Efes Pilsen. On that days (definetly opposite of todays trend) European players were hesitating to test them selfs at NBA. There were too many heartbreaking stories. When they forced to turn back to Europe, their egos were falling down to ground. Hedo took it as challenge. There were not the money issues behind his decision. It was just a dream of him , coming from his childhood days. He just wanted to know where he is at talent wise in the bests' league; Plus, represent his country (the first Turkish-born player in NBA history.)

    In his first year he was taking scrap times (10-15 min) from bench and making standard rookie mistakes; In next year his PT jumped to 20-25 min and was started to use as 6th man, backing up Peja. He earned consideration for the NBA's Sixth Man Award in this sophomore season. I bet you know their dream roster reached Conf. Finals and eliminated by Lakers. You may remember that series from Robert Horry's miracle buzzer beaters. You may also be surprised but Hedo was the best man to man defender on that roster after your former player, Dough Christie. Enough for boring History heh....

    All three coaches (Rick Adelman, Greg Popovich and Brian Hill) used him as a corner shooter at offense (pretty decent stats: aprx 42%FGA, 11/5/2 per game stats.. lemme say "2" is assists ). Is that say something to you? Almost 7 years... None of the those coaches couldn't took more than this from him as a "sharp" shooter. This is what he is as a shooter. You are still asking him to "adapt" to new!!! conditions instead of blaming BC for this mess. And then %99 of the boards is giving "Most disappointment Award" and E Grade to him. Sorry, That sounds very funny to me. Everybody knows that with that stats and as a shooter he is not more than 5-7 mil/year player. Orlando signed him with aprx above mentioned salary at 2004. He luckily took a chance ,when Grant Hill left the the City high hope to wear Ring at Phoneix, and showed his talent to SVG as Point Forward, showed also himself to NBA and gain MIP Award. Now His worth somewhere btw 8-10 mil as a Point Forward. Look what your Raptors' stat guys say for him "Our data suggests that when Hedo was involved in Orlando’s offensive sets last season, Orlando’s offense was among the best in the league. When Hedo wasn’t, Orlando’s offense was below league average – over 4 points per game worse than when he was involved."

    Dont worry for the next 4 years thibis:
    - He is not a "Money Guy". He didn't left Orlando for the money issues its just cuz he felt he was humiliated by Otis Smiths' pro moves. He had actually dedicated himself to there, he loved to be there with his "real" team mates and played whole heartedly. He loved the city. His wife is still there. At least That should say something to you. Orlando's front office acted professionally (They thought the market would be low for all FA's to set themselves for 2010 FA Festival. They played a gamble by letting him test his market), he just unwillingly reacted the same way and then emptied his locker and hugged with team mates before Vince trade were discussed.

    - There will be definitely a market for Hedo out there this summer. No one can be as dump as Triano and BC who thought they need another extra ball handler to their ball happy offense. Some of teams ,which desperately need a veteran facilitator for their poor play maker position, might be willing to add him their roster as a "Point Forward". And yes he worths it. I don't know what was your Dump GM's Master Plan as he was paying him extra 2 mil/year from his real value and then lowered this value by using him as a shooter. A big part of the blame still on Hedo's hand. How can you think you can fit there. Just too sad for him.

    There is still high hope especially in this year in FA Festival with 56.1 mil Cap, there will be so many moves. Only one thing is scaring me that Hedo may feel as if he "owe" your community and may not request trade for himself from BC. Don't afraid thibis; we ( his fans, turkish media, his friends) will take this issue as our primary mission and turn him from his wrong impression when he come back from hostile athmosphere to his home, to Turkey. We will tell him he doesn't belong to Toronto. We will tell him he cant break through from his ashes over there especially with his broken relation with fans and media. We will tell him we cant stand one more year (not even 4 more years) too. Its gonna be long summer.

    Stay calm and dont cry thibis. Just be patient and let the things flow on its way.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Vellassco; Sat Apr 17th, 2010 at 12:21 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote Vellassco wrote: View Post
    - He is not a "Money Guy". He didn't left Orlando for the money issues its just cuz he felt he was humiliated with Otis Smith who played with him like a poker player.
    - There will be definitely a market for Hedo out there this summer. No one can be as dump as Triano and BC who thought they need another extra ball handler to their ball happy offense.
    1)
    Agreed Hedo was not used properly here in Toronto. He is only worth his salary as a point-forward. Triano also has motiviational problems with Hedo. HOWEVER, Hedo had plenty of touches. Hedo also looked a step slower this year. Hedo also was unable to finish at the rim when driving, failed to convert his pull up short-twos, and failed to run the pick and roll with anyone not named Dwight Howard. Hedo did handle the ball a significant amount, and we often did not get enough when he did.

    2)
    Secondly, none of this explains why he was so bad on defence on a number of plays. Now, we knew coming in that Hedo could afford to play tighter on his man in Orlando because of Dwight. BC ought to have known the limitations of Hedo's defence. But he really seemed out of it on the defensive end most nights. He picked up far too many stupid fouls. But, MAYBE, I can let that slide, because no one played good defence under Triano. But he really needed to keep himself in the game by not fouling at such inopportune times.

    3)
    Now, I think that Hedo can play better in a system where he handles the ball more. But will any team take the chance that he still has it in him this offseason? It is still unproven.

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    Oh, and thank-you for posting this even though your english is not as good as you would like. It is a good read from one of the few Hedo supporters out there, and very understandable.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Vellassco's Avatar
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    Quote verbatim wrote: View Post
    1)
    Agreed Hedo was not used properly here in Toronto. He is only worth his salary as a point-forward. Triano also has motiviational problems with Hedo. HOWEVER, Hedo had plenty of touches. Hedo also looked a step slower this year. Hedo also was unable to finish at the rim when driving, failed to convert his pull up short-twos, and failed to run the pick and roll with anyone not named Dwight Howard. Hedo did handle the ball a significant amount, and we often did not get enough when he did.

    2)
    Secondly, none of this explains why he was so bad on defence on a number of plays. Now, we knew coming in that Hedo could afford to play tighter on his man in Orlando because of Dwight. BC ought to have known the limitations of Hedo's defence. But he really seemed out of it on the defensive end most nights. He picked up far too many stupid fouls. But, MAYBE, I can let that slide, because no one played good defence under Triano. But he really needed to keep himself in the game by not fouling at such inopportune times.

    3)
    Now, I think that Hedo can play better in a system where he handles the ball more. But will any team take the chance that he still has it in him this offseason? It is still unproven.
    1- He is a veteran player verbatim. He knows how things progress when the season goes by. He always starts with a bit bulk at the beginning of the season and this bulk helps him throughout the season; looses his extra weights during the regular season and finally he reaches his best form at playoffs. It was the situation before he came here. Too bad, Triano schemes forced him to leave his regular addicts and those bulks stuck with him till the end.

    Plus, he is some kind of momentum guy. He get used to play with his own tempo at Orlando. If you don't let him find his rhythm from the beginning of game, he hides, he hesitates to shot, do not demand ball, turns his lazy mode. Yeah silly but true. But Thats his nature. Every player has his own crypts. Its up to coaches whether they use them or go for another.

    No he don't need just Dwight Howard for his pnr's. You may not paid attention but his best pnr partner was Marcin Gortah, a sizable true center who knows how to roll. You may give Jose-Bosh pnr's as opposed , in that case i can say those are broken/fake ones and easy to get defended esp at playoffs.

    Let me remind you, when Jose injured at the half way through season hedo held to Point Forward position with Banks at supporting role and they performed well. Their record was 1/8 on that period. If Triano had kept going with them Hedo would be his perfect form now and we will be in position to get ready for our 1st round playoff game nowadays.

    2- Yes , Hedo has some difficulties at defense. Yes, He lacks lateral quickness. Those are well known truths before he came here right? No one sold pandora's box out to you. On the other hand, let me say most of the his fails comes from this roster. Defense is the %100 team effort. You should have to know timing of help defense and where to take your opponents, boxing out etc... And now look at your roster and tell me, Bargnani knows those things? Weems? DeRozan? Jose? and yes Amir? Some of them are rookies and some of them lack of defensive mind. After seeing those things you cant just call out Hedo and make him black sheep, rite?

    3- Miami was trying to take him before he came here behind the close doors. I know Bosh will hesitate to add any player in his S&T but who knows , this is NBA where amazing things happen.... he had also some takers from Europe before he left Orlando. He cant stand to be humiliated by Canadian fans one more year. He will leave here in this off-season or max regular season trade deadline.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Vellassco's Avatar
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    Quote verbatim wrote: View Post
    Oh, and thank-you for posting this even though your english is not as good as you would like. It is a good read from one of the few Hedo supporters out there, and very understandable.
    Its kind of you verbatim. thnks.

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    That was a passionate defence of Hedo. He is fortunate to have fans like you.

    But I would suggest that you read or hear his own post season/exit news conference with the media here. He basically took responsibility for his play and I believe apologized for not just his play but some of the other incidents. For many Raptor fans the money he makes we could not care less about (good for him)...it is the salary cap rules that constrains the team when a player comes in good faith and is out of shape and not take his elevated position seriously in trying to fit into the system. To sum up...he did not play hard all of the time...and I think he agrees. Hope he does better for the national team at the World championships and comes back to the Raptors and show us how well and consistent he can really play. His history with Sac., Spurs and Magic mean nothing to me.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Vellassco's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    But I would suggest that you read or hear his own post season/exit news conference with the media here. He basically took responsibility for his play and I believe apologized for not just his play but some of the other incidents.
    Yeah on front of which Media!!! Those media guys were throwing him under the bus whenever they need to blame someone throughout the season. The issues have been even started before he arrive here. Overpaid!!!. Old!!! On decline!!! Vince debates!!!.....
    In early tuff schedule when 9 new face were struggling, He was the first guy to blame. Overpaid!!! He is smiling after the losses, ahh bite him, putt him on front page. As if everything was working well at the team at that days and its just him and his out of shape body (yea, he just had one week off before national training camp and one week before Raptor's pre-season camp) and his body language. Everybody saw the Ball Wars btw him, jose and jack but just Triano. Didn't Triano called out and blame himself for not spending his major times on locker room with players instead of busying with X and O's on the same post season conference?... In those early days He threw them out and watched the war just like us. Luckily, Jose injured (sorry for him, no offense) and then the dusts have just started settle down but whenever Spaniard turned back Math genius coach treated the team as if its the hardest differential equation of all time. The dust surrounded everywhere again. Hedo was forced to back to his shooter mode. The team went down. Genius coach decided to give damn ball on to Hedo's hand at New York game this case. He showed what he capable of to everybody. What happened next? BALL!!!. MASK!! PARTYING!!! and finally FIASCO. Believe or not Toronto deserved to be out of playyoff. Only good thing working well on Toronto is your Your Paparazzi media. They made excellent job all season.

    what did you expect him to say on front those hostile media? " I did whatever i can under these circumstances, its on my team mates and my coach?" like Bosh said.?

    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    For many Raptor fans the money he makes we could not care less about (good for him)...it is the salary cap rules that constrains the team when a player comes in good faith and is out of shape and not take his elevated position seriously in trying to fit into the system.
    The money was always biggest issue in Toronto when the subject come to Hedo. As if this extra 2 mil/year would save the Canadian economy. Bullshit.

    And please don't tell me BC didn't know hedo was going to join European Championship after taking most minutes on his team till the end of playoffs trophy.

    One more note for Portland and Miller thing. His crowd was showing "thanks Banu for Miller" pan-cards to TV screens. Lets see what will happen now at playoffs. Whether the missing key is Miller or not we will see soon.
    Last edited by Vellassco; Sat Apr 17th, 2010 at 08:28 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Madman's Avatar
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    Can i just say about this whole Hedo needs the ball to be effective, it is true however that means you have either Jose or Jack being spot up shooters (or god forbid both when Jay used them at the same time ).

    Personally i dont trust Jack's shot and he is way more effective when he has the ball in his hands and breaks people off the dribble then just sitting on the line and shooting.

    Jose i think could do it, however his shot was off all season imo and he needs to drive to the net so that the defense can slack off him at times which gives him more room to shoot the ball.

    If i had a choice i would get rid of Turk and Jay, never was a fan of either signing

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    Raptors Republic Rookie jamesk's Avatar
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    [

    what did you expect him to say on front those hostile media? " I did whatever i can under these circumstances, its on my team mates and my coach?" like Bosh said.?


    +1

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    I seriously hope Hedo can turn it around. I think we need to getrid of Jose and try to give Hedo the ball more often so he can create
    Last name ever, first name greatest

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    Hedo has shown he can be a key component on contender. Not many (any?) other Raptors can say that. Hopefully the humiliation of this year will motivate him to train over the summer.

    And your English is far, far superior to any other language I might try to speak, so don't sweat it.

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    Quote Vellassco wrote: View Post
    You may also be surprised but Hedo was the best man to man defender on that roster after your former player, Dough Christie.
    A Kings team that finished first in defensive field goal percentage and second in defensive efficiency.

    Hedo Turkoglu was also a key part of San Antonio's best defensive lineups when he was there. I believe that team finished #1 in defensive efficiency also ... posting one of the best marks in the last twenty years.

    And Turkoglu played solid defense for Stan Van Gundy in Orlando.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Three teams. Three coaches. Three defensive systems. Turkoglu was a positive defensive contributor in each location.

    Turkoglu was a negative defensive contributor for his two other coaches in the NBA -- Johnny Davis and Brian Hill -- with neither coach being able to demand consistent defensive effort from him. Just like Jay Triano wasn't this past season.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hedo Turkoglu is a good secondary defender. He is not a stopper. He doesn't have the quickness required to stop elite scorers on a consistent basis. He does however have great size + length and has a very good understanding of team defense. It's difficult for less talented wing players to score against a guy who is 6-10 and has a good understanding of positioning, who will make him shoot over the top of his long reach.

    Use him in that manner and he'll be a positive influence defensively.

    Will he still take a couple of plays off here and there? Absolutely (a couple of times a night), but he'll do good things with the plays where he actually tries.

    Hedo is lucky he is 6-10 because if he was only 6-7 he would be an atrocious defensive player ... but his size lets him get away with things that smaller players cannot get away with.
    Last edited by Dave; Sat Apr 17th, 2010 at 05:14 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie bhattmagandhi's Avatar
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    Everyone has been blaming Turk - so instead of pointing out the obvious, i'll spare this post for blaming somebody else who i believe is also accountable - Jay Triano.

    This is what Jay Triano NEEDS to get through his head. He needs to motivate Turk to become a "high energy level guy" night-in and night-out:



    Van Gundy could do it, and now Triano needs to do it. He needs to push his buttons properly next year. That's half of what coaching is in the NBA. I'm not defending Turk, he DEF has to pick up his game, but i'm positive Triano didn't do much of a coaching job on him.

    And after listening to Stan, its evident that Turkoglu is CLEARLY one of those players that NEEDS to be coached and pushed in order to perform well. Let's hope Triano figures him out next season.

    Cheers,

    bhattmagandhi
    Last edited by bhattmagandhi; Sat Apr 17th, 2010 at 08:23 AM.

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    Wow. I don't think I've ever seen a fan base who make so many excuses for their players. Of course, I guess that's a reflection of society. Always blame others.

    Try blaming Turkoglu for not playing the way he should have instead of trying to find excuses.

    Turkoglu is an extremely talented player who has All-Star ability and signed a huge contract. Self-motivated players don't make excuses or let different systems effect them. They simply go out there and play hard. Turkoglu didn't do that. That's on him.

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    @ Vellassco

    I think you seem to believe that some other members of the Raptor org. have gotten a less of a blowback re this disappointing season than Turkoglu. If so, you have not hung around this site too long. There has been ample arrows slung at all manner of members of the team, coaching staff and Colangelo....and yes, even the media.

    Turk may get a bit more because so much was expected. And it wasnt the talent deficit but the terrible recognition later in the season that he was just not showing up to play. Whatever the reason (coaching or certain team personnel) that is a terrible workplace response over an extended period of time which degraded ultimately overall team performance. The excuse used that he starts slow or he needs to be the focal point of attack is just bs in my view. He is a veteran who should be able to adapt to at least some of the new team members and their skills. Also, h e is now over 30 yrs. old and he needs to take better care of his body if he wants to remain an elite athlete (eg. Ray Allen). I dont think he did this...do you? Towards the end of the season he had 19 rebounds in a game...wonder why this was not possible occasionally during other games in the season (yes I know Bosh was not playing). You blame Triano for his bad coaching....but yet his bad coaching included playing Turk (and other players when they played badly and without defensive intensity). Was it ok then?

    All to say, Turk is as much to blame for this season as anyone else on the team. Try not to give him too much of a pass. I was a supporter of his signing and will be again when he puts out on the floor next season....consistently. Everyone is entitled to have bad games/nights...no one is allowed to slack off anytime.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Vellassco's Avatar
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    @Bendit

    I'm making a statement here in order to focus on "heart" instead of on "hairs". After that We may come conclusion at corrective actions. (I'll try to keep it simple as far as i can. Someone can drag it as a new thread topic)

    Toronto Raptors is out Playoffs now right?. So, This (just itself) shows one or multiple problems exist in the position right? Ok, Now lets approach the situation just like todays' successful companies do (MLSE is a company too, right?). Ok, lets pick one of the problem solving methods. Root Cause Analysis or Priority Analysis?. Ok, I pick Root Cause Analysis. Now, we should pick one of the techniques amongst RCA's (there are lots of them: Failure mode and effects analysis (FMEA), Fault tree analysis, 5 Whys, Pareto analysis... etc). Ok I pick Pareto Analysis.

    Here is what i found from Wikipedia for you:
    Pareto analysis is a statistical technique in decision making that is used for selection of a limited number of tasks that produce significant overall effect. It uses the Pareto principle – the idea that by doing 20% of work you can generate 80% of the advantage of doing the entire job. Or in terms of quality improvement, a large majority of problems (80%) are produced by a few key causes (20%).

    Here are the steps:

    * Step 1: Form a table listing the causes and their frequency as a percentage.
    * Step 2: Arrange the rows in the decreasing order of importance of the causes (i.e, the most important cause first)
    * Step 3: Add a cumulative percentage column to the table
    * Step 4: Plot with causes on x- and cumulative percentage on y-axis
    * Step 5: Join the above points to form a curve
    * Step 6: Plot (on the same graph) a bar graph with causes on x- and percent frequency on y-axis
    * Step 7: Draw line at 80% on y-axis parallel to x-axis. Then drop the line at the point of intersection with the curve on x-axis. This point on the x-axis separates the important causes (on the left) and trivial causes (on the right)
    * Step 8: Review the chart to ensure you are capturing at least 80% of the causes


    Ok, Lets start Step 1 and list them. I'm waiting all Board Members' contributions to this 'problems' carnival. (this will turn a entertaining game in close future , believe me)

    Here is mines: (which come on my mind atm without in order)

    - Throwing 9 new spare parts to table and expecting them to be compatible with each others. (Btw, This one seems general failure of Canadian Basketball i guess, every two year this was repeating huh)
    - No certainty on players' roles within Triano's System. ( some nights Jack was turning to a "Hero" and i thought he was gonna die during his never ending drives while the others just standing and watching him; some nights Bosh turns to jumpshot machine and kill all others momentum... etc etc)
    - Lack of "Alpha Dog" on locker room. (Jack? Jose? Bosh? who is he? who could talk on someones face when the accountability was a issue?)
    .
    .
    .
    ill add to this list later on.





    When we came to Step 2, we will be asking ourself why and identify the true root cause associated with the defined problem.

    I'll make all the rest 6 steps on behalf of you, don't worry for them.

    Note:
    In current situation, whenever you ask to somebody around NBA like : what comes your mind when Toronto and their failures They most likely say (thanks to your media and to your high expectations) > Defense and Turkoglu. right? In case of your media decide to write an article about it I bet they will be certainly putting one of the Turkoglu's pictures ( from silly looking portraits with mask on his face) at top of their articles.

    I'm curious where will Hedo and his struggles show itself at the end of this Root Cause Analysis. Really...

    BTW I ate my words Miller was great. Kodos to him. Sorry for Nash.
    Last edited by Vellassco; Mon Apr 19th, 2010 at 01:40 AM.

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    @ Vellassco

    "In current situation, whenever you ask to somebody around NBA like : what comes your mind when Toronto and their failures They most likely say (thanks to your media and to your high expectations) > Defense and Turkoglu. right?"

    My reaction to describe the main causes of failure in 2 words has always been "defense" (incl. effort)and "coaching"...not so much individual players. I do believe that there is an unemployed coach out there who would have got more out of the team than Triano. So I disagree with your premise. And believe me when I write that apart from RR and other US based publications I do not follow basketball thru the local media (they are hockey and possibly baseball pseudo experts.. first...and they were assigned the basketball beat).

    I saw the beginning of the Port. game and saw that Miller was playing well...he even stole a ball from Nash ! Not to rub it in or compare because they play diff. positions but Miller is a good example of someone who adapted his game in Portland. There were big questions about his "fit" there both by himself and even Roy. Now he is running that team. I am the first to agree that at this level basketball can turn around just as much by subtraction as by addition (no Roy, no Oden). I would not be surprised that if Bosh left this team with better coaching and possibly a good wing and a interior presence for defense/shot blocking could do much better.

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    Vellassco , STOP glorifying Hedo , who cares how he played 2,3,5 10 years ago , this past season was terrible for the entire team with some exceptions and Hedo wasnt one of them ( sadly) , such a big hope turn into s..t , this guy was the biggest dissapointment in my opinion , zero defensive skills , his offence was like lottery you just never knew how many points he is going to score ...5 or 9 or 12 on very good day ,but when he came here hopes where for more like 18-22 PPG , he reminded me of V.C. cry baby this past season. Anyways I do hope that he starts playing BBall with some BALLS next season along with Bargniani and Bosh or he will become like V.C. is to Toronto this days.
    Cheers!

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Vellassco's Avatar
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    Quote heavyweightt wrote: View Post
    Vellassco , STOP glorifying Hedo ,
    Sorry couldn't... I'm a fan... looking different angle... if its giving you pain to hear something from different tone and if you would like to be in a bipolar environment then all i can say good luck!

    who cares how he played 2,3,5 10 years ago
    Sorry but it was just 2 weeks ago( not even years) before he signed here.

    this past season was terrible for the entire team with some exceptions and Hedo wasnt one of them ( sadly) , such a big hope turn into s..t , this guy was the biggest dissapointment in my opinion
    I'm presuming you were the same guy and saying same things when team was hitting 30 wins (no Calderon dayz) prior All-star game and giving high hopes for future on both side of the floor, right? good

    zero defensive skills , his offence was like lottery you just never knew how many points he is going to score ...5 or 9 or 12 on very good day ,but when he came here hopes where for more like 18-22 PPG
    Well, thats good if your basketball knowledge is limited with per game stats. Basketball is bit more complicated than your imagination, dude.
    Btw sorry but when your franchise player and your "project" player were the focal point of offense and taking total 44 shoots per game there were no space for another 22 PPG player in your coaches plan


    he reminded me of V.C. cry baby this past season. Anyways I do hope that he starts playing BBall with some BALLS next season along with Bargniani and Bosh or he will become like V.C. is to Toronto this days.
    Believe or not but he has no any previous record for being cry baby before he joined Raptors. May be thats may say something to you. May be just Torontos' cold weather huh. Money? nah. He was 7 mil/year guy. 7 million its easy to say, hard to count. Exactly due to "COLD" weather!
    Cheers!
    Last edited by Vellassco; Tue Apr 20th, 2010 at 03:10 PM.

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