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Legacy league Match #13 - VOTE for the winner to the Semi-Finals (Joey vs planetmars)

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  • Legacy league Match #13 - VOTE for the winner to the Semi-Finals (Joey vs planetmars)

    The legacy league was created to pit teams drafted by fellow RR members against each other and allow the general RR populous to vote on who would win this winner take all, single elimination game if all players were at their peak performance.

    Each team drafted an 8 man roster. Each team provided a gameplan justification as to why they believe they should get your vote. Each team is allowed 1 post for "in game adjustments." The role of RR community is simple, vote for who you believe should win. Post justification if you want (encouraged) and weigh the pros and cons for all to see, but ultimately, your vote decides who will win this tournament of legends.

    Match # 13 - Champions Bracket

    Joey's Legacy Allstars

    Starters
    PG Allen Iverson aka The Answer - 33ppg, 7.4apg, 1.9spg, 45%FG, 25.9 PER
    MVP, 11x All-Star, 7x All-NBA Selection (3x 1st Team, 3x 2nd Team), 3x Steals Leader, 4x Scoring Champion, BAMF

    SG Ray Allen aka Jesus - 22ppg, 5.2rpg, 4.6apg, 1.5spg, 48%FG, 43%3P, 61%TS, 22.9 PER
    2x Champion, 10x All-Star, 2x All-NBA Selection, All-Time Leader in 3-Pointers Made

    SF Ron Artest aka Metta World Peace - 18.3ppg, 5.3rpg, 2.1spg, 96 DRtg
    Defensive Player of the Year, NBA Champion, 4x All-Defensive Team Selection (2x 1st Team, 2x 2nd Team), BAMF

    PF Willis Reed aka The Captain - 21.7ppg, 13.9rpg, 21.9 PER, 7.5DWS
    MVP, 2x Champion, 2x Finals MVP, 7x All-Star, 5x All-NBA Selection (1x 1st Team, 4x 2nd Team), All-NBA Defensive Team

    C Wilt Chamberlain aka The Big Dipper - 50ppg, 25rpg 31.8 PER (Highest Ever for all 3) - Averaged 24, 24 & 8 on 68%FG at 30yo
    4x MVP, 13x Allstar, 2x Champion, 9x All NBA Selection (7x 1st Team), 11x Rebounds Leader, Led NBA in Assists in 67-68 because, why not .. ah just go here, he has a whole Wiki page on his accomplishments.

    Bench
    PG Steve Nash aka Captain Canada - 18.6ppg, 11.6apg, 53%FG, 46%3P, 65%TS, 124 ORtg
    2x MVP, 8x All-Star, 7x All-NBA Selection (3x 1st Team), 5x Assist Leader, 4x 50-40-90 (Most in History), 3rd Most Assists in History

    SG/SF Eddie Jones aka ... EJ - 20.1ppg, 4.8rpg, 4.2apg, 2.7spg, 38%3P, 20PER, 4.4DWS
    3x All-Defensive Team Selection, 3x All-Star, 1x Steals Leader

    PF Shawn Kemp aka The Reign Man - 18.1ppg, 10.8rpg, 2.1bpg, 1.6spg, 22.9 PER, 6.0 DWS, 96 DRtg
    6x All-Star, 3x All-NBA 2nd Team Selection, BAMF


    planetmars Starters:

    C - Robert Parish - 4x Champion, 9x all star
    PF - Charles Barkley - '93 MVP, career 22PPG and 11.7 RPG
    SF - Lebron James - 4x MVP, 5x All-Defensive 1st team
    SG - Bruce Bowen - 5x All-Defensive 1st team, 3x All-Defensive 2nd team
    PG - Chris Paul - 5x All-Defensive 1st team, 4x NBA leader in assists, 6x NBA leader in steals

    Bench
    Ben Wallace - 4x Defensive Player of the Year
    James Harden - 2x All-NBA first team
    Bernard King - '85 scoring leader, 2x All-NBA first team

    Joey's Gameplan

    I'll be starting Allen Iverson to match up against CP3, and it'll be a pretty epic battle of the little guys, but I think Iverson ultimately wins out as he's just too quick, and when he's got guys like Wilt, Kemp and Reed setting screens for him, I'm not sure anyone will be able to stop him, including 4x whatever CP3. Once Iverson gets moving, it's next to impossible to stop him, and with guys like Ray Allen, Artest and Jones waiting on the wings, even Bowen and Lebron will be pretty hard pressed to do anything about it. I don't think that Bowen, King and especially not Harden, would be able to keep up with Allen and his Elite off-ball movement, utilizing off-ball screens set by some of the hardest bodies in History, and Iverson has shown that when given teammates to pass too, he was more than willing to find the open man.

    I will also look to exploit Wilt Chamberlain's elite passing ability (lead the league in assists), which combined with his historically extreme wingspan, will make it easy for him to find the open man for countless splashy 3's, and driving lanes galore. Planetmars just has absolutely no way to stop Wilt; he may say that Parish or Wallace will be tough foes for him, but realistically they would merely be pylons in his way (Exhibit A: I'd like to point to this short documentary which highlights Wilts INCREDIBLE strength and athletic abilities). In his prime, there was just no way of stopping him, and with AI (and Nash) wreaking havoc like perpetual motion on the outside, Wilt would be absolutely free to do his bidding down low.

    Defensively, I think the combination of Artest, Jones and Kemp hounding Lebron each and every minute he was on the floor, would be more than enough to at least make it very difficult for him to get any sort of rhythm. Outside of Lebron, I don't see Harden or King being difficult to stop with Jones or Artest, and with Lebron and CP3 taking majority of ballt, they would become spot ups as neither were known for their off-ball game; and once again, I don't need to worry about Parish or Wallace defensively.
    And finally, at 6'10", and easily much heavier than his listed 240lbs, Willis Reed was the original Round Mound of Rebound, and would match up very well against Barkley and his 6'6" self; scoring at will, and combining his own prowess on the boards, with Wilt's ridiculous rebounding acumen, to deny the majority rebounds.

    planetmars Gameplan

    Joey is going to try to use ball movement and pick and rolls to try to get Nash and AI open looks but he hasn't had to face a defensive force that includes Lebron James, Chris Paul, Bruce Bowen, Robert Parish and Ben Wallace coming off the bench. Paul has the quickness and defensive smarts to get around screens and being able to stay in front of Nash or even AI to make it easy for them to get their looks (being a member of 5 defensive first teams, and 2 defensive second teams just emphasizes this point). Wilt will be covered mainly by Parish who's done well against premium centers like Malone, Kareem, Issel, Gilmore and Sikma back in the day playing in elite defensive Celtic teams in the early 80's but will also have to face Ben Wallace who is a 4x defensive player of the year and is a type of center Wilt has probably never faced (and actually has had success with big centers like Shaq, Mourning, Ilgauskas and Ming). Barkley should have no problems guarding Kemp where head to head Barkley usually came on top as their career head to head numbers demonstrate that (22.9PPG vs 17.3PPG, 11.4RPG vs 9.7RPG; 3.9APG vs 2.3APG); and although Reed was a 20/20 player in his prime, he was also playing before the ABA/NBA merger so didn't really face the same talent that Barkley or Wallace have had to face in their careers. Allen and Jones are elite three point shooters but will always be covered by Bruce Bowen or James Harden (who is actually a pretty good 3pt defender) so their looks are not going to be as clean as you would expect despite the constant motion of Joey's offense. James has the ability to cover 5 positions on the court and will be that versatile defender and can be an elite help defender if he needs to be.

    Joey has problems defensively and the defensive disadvantage is what loses the match for him... Nash will not be able to keep up with Paul (head to head, Paul has always had an advantage: 22PPG vs 13.3PPG; 9.5APG vs 9.5APG; 4.5RPG vs 2.8RPG) and AI is too short to cover someone like James Harden (when he comes off the bench). LBJ will be the main offensive focal as he's a dominant isolation player and will probably be covered by World Peace who's never really been a problem for James (head to head, LBJ scored 26.9PPG, 6.8RPG, 6.5APG against MWP). Allen (or Jones) won't be able to keep Bruce unchecked (has a career 39.3% 3PFG%) so won't really be able to spend time with double coverage on LBJ, Harden or even someone like Bernard King who can easily average 30 PPG. Kemp is going to need Wilt to help on Barkley, which would create more opportunities for Robert Parish to score, and is able to put up 20PPG as he proved in his early prime years.

    In Game Adjustments - Coming Soon!

    So RR faithful, who wins this game?
    16
    Joey's Legends
    56.25%
    9
    planetmars' Legends
    43.75%
    7

    The poll is expired.

    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

  • #2
    Personally, I don't like switching Iverson in for Nash, but it's a tough matchup for Joey either way.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Iverson paired off with some fine catch and shoot wings doesn't work as well as Nash in my opinion but I await adjustments. Will check in Monday after adjustments and then vote.

      Iverson vs Paul is intriguing though.

      Comment


      • #4
        Really interesting match up. At first glance I want to say PM's team has the advantage but looking carefully Joey's team matches up very well. They're both equal atm for me but I want to read the strategies more thoroughly and see what adjustments take place as well. Looks like this is gonna be a good one.
        #JaysWinningLikeItz93'

        Comment


        • #5
          In game adjustments:

          Paul will have a harder time guarding AI, but he's such a good on ball defender (lead the league in steals 6 times) that he won't make it easy for AI to get clean looks... and since AI is such a ball dominant guard (averaged 35% usage in his peak years (yet never helped his team generate a top 10 offense), I will enjoy the fact that AI will be taking 25 shots in the game (at a below average efficiency) preventing Wilt from getting the ball as often as he should in Joey's offense.

          Since Allen works best with ball movement getting clean open looks at the three point line - having a more stagnant offense with AI running the point allows Bowen to cover him and do what he has to do to slow him down.

          Reed may offset some of Barkley's advantages that he'd have over Kemp but he'd be under-estimating how big Barkley plays despite his 6'6 stature.. after all it was Barkley that lead the 1992 Dream Team in scoring that summer.

          Joey still doesn't really have a game plan to stop LBJ, as his big weapons were Artest (already proven that LBJ got the best of him) and either Jones or Kemp who'll both be coming off the bench, creating a size mismatch for LBJ with Jones who's only 6'6, 200lbs and with Kemp which would force Wilt to have to cover both Barkley and Parish in the paint since he's not a small forward but a 6'10 PF with no 3 point shot.

          I still haven't really even had the time to discuss the bench advantage that my team has over Joey's team - Harden, King and Wallace just simply create more problems for Joey than Kemp, Nash or Jones would for my team.

          Comment


          • #6
            So far so good. Waiting on joeys' adjustments to see how to vote. Like how mars' adjustment dealt directly with the surprise line up.

            Comment


            • #7
              Adjustments

              Adjustments

              planetmars wrote: View Post
              Paul will have a harder time guarding AI, but he's such a good on ball defender (lead the league in steals 6 times) that he won't make it easy for AI to get clean looks... and since AI is such a ball dominant guard (averaged 35% usage in his peak years (yet never helped his team generate a top 10 offense), I will enjoy the fact that AI will be taking 25 shots in the game (at a below average efficiency) preventing Wilt from getting the ball as often as he should in Joey's offense.

              Since Allen works best with ball movement getting clean open looks at the three point line - having a more stagnant offense with AI running the point allows Bowen to cover him and do what he has to do to slow him down.
              I did already address how Ray Allen will be continuously moving off-ball, and using off-ball screens, so I'm not sure why you're able to now say he will be standing around (especially when Nash will be still be getting more than a few minutes at the Point as well); there will be nothing stagnant about my offense, however, I do once again believe your team would suffer with so many players that require pounding the ball to be effective.

              As for AI, I personally don't think CP3 would ever be able to slow him down in his prime, and I think we can all agree that AIs castmates were perennially subpar, thus requiring AI's high usage (which just so happened to lead them to the Finals); if given half decent teammates, he absolutely showed a penchant for finding the open man (AI is 1 of 4 players who have averaged 30+ points while also dishing out 7.9apg. The others to do it were Jordan, Big O and Tiny.A.), perfectly highlighting the awkward situation he was placed in by having to score mass amounts of points while also facilitating mostly subpar teammates.

              planetmars wrote:
              Reed may offset some of Barkley's advantages that he'd have over Kemp but he'd be under-estimating how big Barkley plays despite his 6'6 stature.. after all it was Barkley that lead the 1992 Dream Team in scoring that summer.
              Reed was notorious for playing bigger than his size, so again, I don't think Barkley has much of a chance at being anywhere near his effective self against a bigger, stronger, and arguably more talented Reed (lets also not forget that Barkley was hardly a defensive threat, and would almost certainly be a liability on that end of the floor in this game).

              planetmars wrote:
              Joey still doesn't really have a game plan to stop LBJ, as his big weapons were Artest (already proven that LBJ got the best of him) and either Jones or Kemp who'll both be coming off the bench, creating a size mismatch for LBJ with Jones who's only 6'6, 200lbs and with Kemp which would force Wilt to have to cover both Barkley and Parish in the paint since he's not a small forward but a 6'10 PF with no 3 point shot.
              planetmars unfortunately has even less of a game plan to stop the most dominant Scorer, rebounder and over all force of all time in Wilt Chamberlain, and hasn't addressesd that what so ever in the entire game plan, except saying Parish would be able to stop him - which I think its safe to say that if Kareem could barely stop Wilt as an Old Man, the far inferior Robert Parish would have zero chance of stopping Prime Wilt; that said, considering Lebron wasn't even in the league /was a rookie, when Artest was in his prime with Indiana, I personally don't think you proved anything by comparing their career stats.

              planetmars wrote:
              I still haven't really even had the time to discuss the bench advantage that my team has over Joey's team - Harden, King and Wallace just simply create more problems for Joey than Kemp, Nash or Jones would for my team.
              I disagree with this, since Harden and King are basically the same high volume, ball in hand scorer, which together would be really awkward out on the floor, and seeing as Wilt easily plays 48 minutes a game (did so for an entire season and playoff run to championships) Ben Wallace creates zero issues for me and Wilt; but with Nash and Jones, they offer exceptional Floor Spacing and Facilitation, with Jones and Kemp offering elite pesky Defense, all of which create problems for mars.
              Last edited by Joey; Sun Aug 23, 2015, 10:13 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                i disagree with plantemars' bench being the better one. i really like joeys'. i don't think joeys' defense on lebron is going to work but i also don't think anyone is stopping wilt here.

                good game

                Comment


                • #9
                  Just saying this from an Overseer point of view, but maybe Axel wants to say it and delete mine - A reminder that unlike previous polls, this Poll is scheduled to close a bit earlier, around 4pm EST on Monday.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This has been the toughest matchup so far, and the hardest one for me to envision how the lineups would actually play together on the court. I think it really comes down to Wilt vs LBJ, as I think they'd dominate for their respective teams.

                    I really worry that AI's ball-dominance would actually be detrimental to Wilt and, by extension, Allen on the perimeter. I think Nash is a better fit with that lineup.

                    On the other side, it's too bad there wasn't a little more 3pt shooting surrounding LBJ/Parish/Barkley. LBJ playing big and drawing double-teams could create many easy drop-off opportunities for their bigs, but the defense could collapse on the paint without any significant 3pt threats.

                    All my other votes were decided quickly, but this matchup will come down to the wire for me. Good adjustments from both teams only serves to muddy the water even further.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      In my mind it is pretty simple

                      AI = Paul

                      Both great offensively, both great defensively

                      Bowen< Allen
                      Lebron>Artest

                      With his shooting and cutting Bowen would eventually get wore out guarding him, and Bowen really brings nothing offensivly
                      Ron can slow him, but not stop him.

                      Barkley = Reed
                      thats even IMO

                      Parish<<<<<<<<<<<<
                      The difference between Wilt and Parish FAR exceeds the difference between Bowen/Lebron and Ray/Artest pairing on the wing

                      The bench is essentially equal with the exception of Wallace and Kemp, And that is the trouble. Kemp trumps Wallace.

                      So Joey wins based off of Kemp and Wilt the Stilt more than making up for what is lost on the wings.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Snooch wrote: View Post
                        In my mind it is pretty simple

                        AI = Paul

                        Both great offensively, both great defensively

                        Bowen< Allen
                        Lebron>Artest

                        With his shooting and cutting Bowen would eventually get wore out guarding him, and Bowen really brings nothing offensivly
                        Ron can slow him, but not stop him.

                        Barkley = Reed
                        thats even IMO

                        Parish<<<<<<<<<<<<
                        The difference between Wilt and Parish FAR exceeds the difference between Bowen/Lebron and Ray/Artest pairing on the wing

                        The bench is essentially equal with the exception of Wallace and Kemp, And that is the trouble. Kemp trumps Wallace.

                        So Joey wins based off of Kemp and Wilt the Stilt more than making up for what is lost on the wings.
                        My initial gut reaction was the same as yours, thinking that Joey had this easily, mainly due to Wilt. However, I think AI is a terrible PG to pair him with, because AI would essentially be taking the ball out of Wilt's hands so often. Also, I think you're vastly underestimating the impact LBJ would have, who is way more than just a single ">" better than Artest; he's as un-guardable as Wilt.

                        I'm starting to think that the Wilt/AI combo will render their own teammates somewhat useless, allowing the defense to constantly double-team both of them whenever needed. The combination of LBJ & Paul have the benefit of making their teammates exponentially better, as they're very unselfish (though LBJ can also takeover a game singlehandedly, as needed) and are great facilitators.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I thought that at first, but AI played with Coleman, and Coleman got his shots up.

                          And add to that Ray averaged 6 assists per game in his prime and Artest a further 3.5 and you have enough passing to get Wilt his.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Geez, only 10 votes?! Haha, at least I managed the Tie!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Technically only 8 votes as we voted for each other.. lol

                              Worst turn out since we started this thing. I guess people are getting bored of it. To break the tie we probably need to keep going for at least another 24 hours.

                              Comment

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