Has Casey finally learned?

[golden]

Lewenberg's article article suggests that the players got away from the defensive commitment that brought them success in 2013-14 because of the (previously unimaginable) success they had in the first half of 2014/15.

The article then emphasizes that:

1) the returning players have come into camp with a renewed commitment to sharing the ball (given how things fell apart during the second half of last year and the pain endured). And

2) Some of the key additions are players who were pre-committed to this and will help reinforce the coach's message.


Impossible to miss the implication, though, CRF, that any and all fans who are reluctant to simply blame Casey for all of the Raps struggles are just "stupid/"fools", CRF.

I think you need to take a few minutes and go through this old RR thread, and you can see exactly where CRF and others are coming from. There are some savvy RR posters who weren't fooled by the regular season success of the offense and predicted the un-sustainability and utter failure in the playoffs based on the style of play and system, far in advance.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...ense-is-flawed

[Wild-ling#1]

Its stuff like this that makes me think we are smarter than him. A lot of us have been saying this for damn near a year.

Every rational fiber in my body tells me that, with an organization behind him and years of experience, I must be the one that is missing something. But there is nothing he just said that we haven't.

Has Casey finally learned? We can only pray to all known gods, benevolent or demonic, that this is true.

I hate those responses, right up there with, "hes an all star." It doesn't tell me why my beliefs are wrong, which is what i want. A good discussion isnt telling others that they are wrong but showing others what is right at least how i see it.

I would take the view that those who have criticized Casey have 1) identified legitimate weaknesses in his skill-set and 2) offered some serviceable analysis about the team's shortcomings .

Still, I think that some false assumptions are being employed along with the analysis, which result in hyper-criticism. People are assuming that (as examples):

1) Casey is unaware of the team's shortcomings ... which I think has to be false.

I think the team had various personnel issues ... some of which have been addressed ... but not all. Will JV be ready this year? Will DeMar and Kyle make better on-court decisions? Will our options at the 4 be enough to see us through? How good is CoJo? [etc., etc., etc. But noone knows the answers to these ... yet.]

2) Masai ditched Casey's assistants as something of a rebuke of Casey and against his will ... quite possibly entirely false. Casey and Masai might have been united in choosing different assistants - quite possibly to implement the kind of systems Dan H has suggested ... and now that the personnel issues have been (partially) addressed.

3) Casey hates rookies and can't develop talent:

JV didn't have to "re-up". So either he's "stupid" ... or he (and his people ... maybe including the Lithaunian national team coach, his agent, for example) understands and agrees with how he's been used/developed. Many NBA writers have said "protected", actually. This year, Casey has said that Wright and Powell are more NBA ready than rookies typically are ... but they're seriously blocked behind DeRozan/T-Ross and Lowry/CoJo. So we may hear the "he hates rookies and holds them to a different standard than vets" all season long. With Bennett, too, because there's a guy who really needs protecting - and they've signaled that he's a long-term project.

If the critics are right on all counts, though,then if anyone's "stupid" it's "the Masai-ah". We hear all kinds of speculation about why Masai didn't pull the plug ... But he's strangely immune from criticism (even his rambling discursive style and pnechant for long non-answers is lauded as superior communication. I adore the guy ... but come on ).

Casey, through the disaster of last season's shenanigans, has kept the organization as functional as one can reasonably expect, I think. But given that there are still significant questions about this roster that can't be addressed right away, I fear that our discussions of what is happening and what should be happening can't be fully functional unless some are prepared to acknowledge that all people have weaknesses. But Casey can't even defend himself without playing the blame game with his roster. Masai must know what we know. And the remaining key targets for organizational growth are 6 months, or a year and two away, anyway ...

So let's see shall we? And continue to analyze and discuss with open minds and some respect, if not for Casey and the significant challenges and pressures he facing, then for those whose opinions differ from our own ...

[Mess]

Another thought on Casey's behalf: it's easy for fans to say "change the defense" but give no thought about the process about getting the players to actually change what they do. When DC says it ain't rocket science, that's true, but perhaps the Raptors ain't exactly rocket scientists. It's nice to think/dream that everyone is a pro in the NBA so the coaches and players should be able to teach and execute just like that *snaps fingers", but like everywhere else that's not the case.

Having said that, I still lean towards Casey feeling uncomfortable trusting his player's ability to adapt as a factor. But he is around them all day, whereas all we see, for example, is JJ make an amazing block, he sees him gamble and miss rotations all the time in practice.


He can do much better though.

[Wild-ling#1]

I think you need to take a few minutes and go through this old RR thread, and you can see exactly where CRF and others are coming from. There are some savvy RR posters who weren't fooled by the regular season success of the offense and predicted the un-sustainability and utter failure in the playoffs based on the style of play and system, far in advance.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...ense-is-flawed

Good read. And Mike Prada sure does predict problems early in. But, honestly, I don't think it's a fair characterization of the article to suggest that the Raptors' struggles were simply a function of the style of play and systems. The article identifies that the Raptors have been using "Horns" for at least two years ... but had significant personnel limitations, right?

But a good read. I'll keep an eye out for Prada's writing.

[Axel]

I think you need to take a few minutes and go through this old RR thread, and you can see exactly where CRF and others are coming from. There are some savvy RR posters who weren't fooled by the regular season success of the offense and predicted the un-sustainability and utter failure in the playoffs based on the style of play and system, far in advance.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...ense-is-flawed

A nice stroll down memory lane. There were also countless discussions in other threads, especially the game threads (next day posts).

I remember after beating Houston there was a lovely "a win is not really a win" discussion lol. Some felt the offence wouldn't translate to the playoffs and others felt there was no proof to that (I remember many tried to capture the playoff success of heavy jump shooting teams).

[mcHAPPY]

Good read. And Mike Prada sure does predict problems early in. But, honestly, I don't think it's a fair characterization of the article to suggest that the Raptors' struggles were simply a function of the style of play and systems. The article identifies that the Raptors have been using "Horns" for at least two years ... but had significant personnel limitations, right?

But a good read. I'll keep an eye out for Prada's writing.

Actually, no.

Personnel wasn't the issue. The issue was they didn't run horns last year - period. The very issue that so many of us harped on and forecasted would be a failure was the style of play and 'system'.

You read through the thread and there is also another link to a post by golden from November 3rd. There were some of us 4 games in to the season picking the offense apart and warning of what would happen especially come playoffs. Then you had post something of the effect, "whats the problem? They lead the league in points scored" as justification for playing terrible basketball.

[Chr1s1anL]

I would take the view that those who have criticized Casey have 1) identified legitimate weaknesses in his skill-set and 2) offered some serviceable analysis about the team's shortcomings .

Still, I think that some false assumptions are being employed along with the analysis, which result in hyper-criticism. People are assuming that (as examples):

1) Casey is unaware of the team's shortcomings ... which I think has to be false.

I think the team had various personnel issues ... some of which have been addressed ... but not all. Will JV be ready this year? Will DeMar and Kyle make better on-court decisions? Will our options at the 4 be enough to see us through? How good is CoJo? [etc., etc., etc. But noone knows the answers to these ... yet.]

2) Masai ditched Casey's assistants as something of a rebuke of Casey and against his will ... quite possibly entirely false. Casey and Masai might have been united in choosing different assistants - quite possibly to implement the kind of systems Dan H has suggested ... and now that the personnel issues have been (partially) addressed.

3) Casey hates rookies and can't develop talent:

JV didn't have to "re-up". So either he's "stupid" ... or he (and his people ... maybe including the Lithaunian national team coach, his agent, for example) understands and agrees with how he's been used/developed. Many NBA writers have said "protected", actually. This year, Casey has said that Wright and Powell are more NBA ready than rookies typically are ... but they're seriously blocked behind DeRozan/T-Ross and Lowry/CoJo. So we may hear the "he hates rookies and holds them to a different standard than vets" all season long. With Bennett, too, because there's a guy who really needs protecting - and they've signaled that he's a long-term project.

If the critics are right on all counts, though,then if anyone's "stupid" it's "the Masai-ah". We hear all kinds of speculation about why Masai didn't pull the plug ... But he's strangely immune from criticism (even his rambling discursive style and pnechant for long non-answers is lauded as superior communication. I adore the guy ... but come on ).

Casey, through the disaster of last season's shenanigans, has kept the organization as functional as one can reasonably expect, I think. But given that there are still significant questions about this roster that can't be addressed right away, I fear that our discussions of what is happening and what should be happening can't be fully functional unless some are prepared to acknowledge that all people have weaknesses. But Casey can't even defend himself without playing the blame game with his roster. Masai must know what we know. And the remaining key targets for organizational growth are 6 months, or a year and two away, anyway ...

So let's see shall we? And continue to analyze and discuss with open minds and some respect, if not for Casey and the significant challenges and pressures he facing, then for those whose opinions differ from our own ...

+1 very well put. Very refreshing too.

[OldSkoolCool]

You know that old guy at work who isnt actually all that good or knowledgable about his job but is in a very high up position just cause he has been doing it since the stone age?

That reminds me of Casey

****************

Also w.r.t. to the rookie development under Casey:

He needs to play them for experience because there is no replacement for game time AND the importance of game film. Showing a player actually what they are doing incorrectly and how the need to change in order to improve is step 1 for development. That is the case of arguement there but it is also understandable to spend a year or so on the bench (for Bruno)

What myself and others are most concerned about is the lack of mental and role identification development for players. I have two examples: T.Ross and Bruno

1) TRoss - here is a guy destined to be a catch and shoot guy from three and get out in transition. What have we seen? Casey hasnt put him in a system that utilizes his catch and shoot ability, nor has he taught Ross how to move on the court to find himself an open three. Instead Ross onky gets open looks by the defense leaving him or a specifically designed three. There has been no mental excersize from Casey. Second, we saw Casey use Ross as a mini DeMar...which is just stupid. Ross' game is blatantly different and he wont succeed in that situation.

2) Bruno - Bruno was drafted for his combination of physical attributes and his shooting stroke. In garbage time he should have been the focus of the offense by running off screens and entering catch and shoot situations. Instead we saw him become progressively more ISO as the season went on. Again there was no indication that Bruno was being taught how to become an elite shooter in the NBA.

I would say that Casey is bad at player development. We have seen JV, Ross, DD, Bebe, and Bruno all stagnate, regress, make dumber decisions, or be improperly utilized nearly every game last season

Casey is a BAD coach and deserves to be fired.

[Wild-ling#1]

Actually, no.

Personnel wasn't the issue. The issue was they didn't run horns last year - period. The very issue that so many of us harped on and forecasted would be a failure was the style of play and 'system'.

You read through the thread and there is also another link to a post by golden from November 3rd. There were some of us 4 games in to the season picking the offense apart and warning of what would happen especially come playoffs. Then you had post something of the effect, "whats the problem? They lead the league in points scored" as justification for playing terrible basketball.

I went through about 3/4 of the posts. While there were some who were identifying problems that would worsen, there wasn't a consensus on the "why?" ... and so "What's the problem?" wasn't the only response to the problems identified ... by posters or by (linked) NBA writers.

I'm not going to try to recapitulate it all. But ... (sigh). I think there were - and still are - personnel issues. And there are just some really great other teams out there, too.

But a "shout out" to some of the RR members. Some friction aside, it seemed a pretty good (and very timely) discussion, overall. Golden, Jaws GT and a number of others were really contributing well ... Where did Bryan Colangelo (the RR member) Go?

One can easily imagine how the frustration built from there, though ... and so how the coach ended up with all the blame ...

[Wild-ling#1]

You know that old guy at work who isnt actually all that good or knowledgable about his job but is in a very high up position just cause he has been doing it since the stone age?

That reminds me of Casey

****************

Also w.r.t. to the rookie development under Casey:

He needs to play them for experience because there is no replacement for game time AND the importance of game film. Showing a player actually what they are doing incorrectly and how the need to change in order to improve is step 1 for development. That is the case of arguement there but it is also understandable to spend a year or so on the bench (for Bruno)

What myself and others are most concerned about is the lack of mental and role identification development for players. I have two examples: T.Ross and Bruno

1) TRoss - here is a guy destined to be a catch and shoot guy from three and get out in transition. What have we seen? Casey hasnt put him in a system that utilizes his catch and shoot ability, nor has he taught Ross how to move on the court to find himself an open three. Instead Ross onky gets open looks by the defense leaving him or a specifically designed three. There has been no mental excersize from Casey. Second, we saw Casey use Ross as a mini DeMar...which is just stupid. Ross' game is blatantly different and he wont succeed in that situation.

2) Bruno - Bruno was drafted for his combination of physical attributes and his shooting stroke. In garbage time he should have been the focus of the offense by running off screens and entering catch and shoot situations. Instead we saw him become progressively more ISO as the season went on. Again there was no indication that Bruno was being taught how to become an elite shooter in the NBA.

I would say that Casey is bad at player development. We have seen JV, Ross, DD, Bebe, and Bruno all stagnate, regress, make dumber decisions, or be improperly utilized nearly every game last season

Casey is a BAD coach and deserves to be fired.

... Which is why, I imagine, Masai made it a condition of his employment that we get a D-League team. So ... welcome to year 1 of that.

To say that JV and DD have made no progress at all ... that's ... well, I'd say debatable, to say the least. But I'm going to leave it there. Sorry. But I think it's a kind of sin, in this kind of forum, to state your "opinion(s) as fact". Doesn't help the tenor or flow of a discussion, I don't think ...

Why be an "o.a.f."?

[Mess]

1) TRoss - Casey hasnt put him in a system that utilizes his catch and shoot ability, nor has he taught Ross how to move on the court to find himself an open three. Instead Ross onky gets open looks by the defense leaving him or a specifically designed three.

2) Bruno - Bruno was drafted for his combination of physical attributes and his shooting stroke. In garbage time he should have been the focus of the offense by running off screens and entering catch and shoot situations. Instead we saw him become progressively more ISO as the season went on. Again there was no indication that Bruno was being taught how to become an elite shooter in the NBA.

I would say that Casey is bad at player development. We have seen JV, Ross, DD, Bebe, and Bruno all stagnate, regress, make dumber decisions, or be improperly utilized nearly every game last season

Casey is a BAD coach and deserves to be fired.

1) Isn't "a specifically designed three" (which the Raps do run for Ross) the exact same thing as "utilizing his catch and shoot ability"? (which you say they don't).

It's funny. Ross' and Derozan's games are different but what do each need to improve on? What the other is good at. So what do you call asking them to put into a game what they work on in practice? Is development a good term for that?

2) Garbage time is called garbage time for a reason. The main focus of the offense is for no one to get hurt running the clock out. What's the point in running him hard off screens if the defense is not going to give a shit about closing out on him? He'd learn more running those plays in practice.

If Bruno was a baseball player would you want him stealing bases when they're up/down 8 runs? And fire the manager when he doesn't?

Anyway, I shouldn't be surprised. But tossing in Bebe and Bruno with the ones who you think are regressing, stagnating, being improperly utilized is amusingly absurd. Well done.

I'm not saying Casey is great at player development. But your hate for him has clearly diminished any ability you may have to make a coherent argument.

[SkywalkerAC]

We have 3-years of development time for Ross and Jonas under Casey and other than a poor 2-way season for Ross last year I'm pretty content with his performance there. No, he didn't "go with Jonas" like he could have last year, but Jonas did sign on to continue his developmental journey with the Raps, and he has come a long way in 3 short years. Casey has dealt out some tough (if not borderline daft) love to these two, and they have struggled with certain aspects of the game, but he has found them minutes, and I think he'll have them ready and making an impact in this, their 4th, season.

[golden]

I went through about 3/4 of the posts. While there were some who were identifying problems that would worsen, there wasn't a consensus on the "why?" ... and so "What's the problem?" wasn't the only response to the problems identified ... by posters or by (linked) NBA writers.

I'm not going to try to recapitulate it all. But ... (sigh). I think there were - and still are - personnel issues. And there are just some really great other teams out there, too.

But a "shout out" to some of the RR members. Some friction aside, it seemed a pretty good (and very timely) discussion, overall. Golden, Jaws GT and a number of others were really contributing well ... Where did Bryan Colangelo (the RR member) Go?

One can easily imagine how the frustration built from there, though ... and so how the coach ended up with all the blame ...

You're never going to have consensus on a message board - that's why some threads become 3000+ posts. Consensus is meaningless.

Instead, you should be paying closer attention to who was actually right (i.e. posters like CRF, Axel, mcHappy, OldSkool, etc...), the cause of the offense failing in the playoffs (i.e. Casey ISO heavy system), and why the coaching staff couldn't see the same thing (...instead of doubling down on ISO). Those are the key points of discussion here.

It's also very important to remember that those "negative" posters, were forecasting that iceberg, when the Raps were stream-rolling the Eastern conference, and still ended up with a top 5 offense. That was an unpopular opinion to have at the time. Nobody's perfect, obviously, but when I see those posters (and a few others, sorry I forgot mention) point out basketball related stuff, I generally hold their opinion in higher regard.

[OldSkoolCool]

1) Isn't "a specifically designed three" (which the Raps do run for Ross) the exact same thing as "utilizing his catch and shoot ability"? (which you say they don't).

It's funny. Ross' and Derozan's games are different but what do each need to improve on? What the other is good at. So what do you call asking them to put into a game what they work on in practice? Is development a good term for that?

2) Garbage time is called garbage time for a reason. The main focus of the offense is for no one to get hurt running the clock out. What's the point in running him hard off screens if the defense is not going to give a shit about closing out on him? He'd learn more running those plays in practice.

If Bruno was a baseball player would you want him stealing bases when they're up/down 8 runs? And fire the manager when he doesn't?

Anyway, I shouldn't be surprised. But tossing in Bebe and Bruno with the ones who you think are regressing, stagnating, being improperly utilized is amusingly absurd. Well done.

I'm not saying Casey is great at player development. But your hate for him has clearly diminished any ability you may have to make a coherent argument.

You're naking this too easy Mess

1) how ofte did we see the Raps run their set play for Ross? Once a week? Yay 'developmet'. We also see Ross just stand around often (which pisses off a lot of posters), but he also hasnt been shown how to move to generate an open three when the play breaks down. Any idiot can run a set play, what made Ray Allen/Miller/Rip good at what they do is their ability to take advantage of the defensive position

2) Garbage time is supposed to be for development. Chucking ling twos and dicking around is for amatures and reinforces bad habits. If you go back into game threads where Bruno played you will see me very angry that Casey even played him after you see him overhandle and try and be DD...I would rather Bruno not play than play garbage time. The best time to develop a player while being competitive is the second quarter. Also give him a defined goal/role so he can work on that while he is not on the court. Dude hasnt done anything in the NBA yet so give him one thing at a time. Which brings me to anothet point for (1)

**********

TRoss isnt that good of a shooter as he could be...but instead of developing his shooting, and his ability to create his shooting opportunities, he is being asked to drive. Why? WTF does Ross need to drive for? Why does he need to work less on shooting and see a percentage dip just so he can put up mid ranged shots and drives at an efficiency well below league average?

Another stupid coaching decision. Call it hate or whatever you want, doesn't change the mountain of evidence that points towards Casey being a stupid head coach.

I can't think of one thing that Casey does above average except being likeable...and if thats the case why do we just hire a "massuese" to keep the players happy.

[psrs1]

I hate those responses, right up there with, "hes an all star." It doesn't tell me why my beliefs are wrong, which is what i want. A good discussion isnt telling others that they are wrong but showing others what is right at least how i see it.

I think it is meant to be a philosophical statement. The discussion re DC's competence as a NBA head coach will continue to be discussed on this forum until he either leads us an extended playoff run or is fired. Just because a poster on this forum doesn't have a pedigree like DC it doesn't make them wrong in their analysis of his lack of competence or flexibility.