New York Knicks and Denver loss tracker for 2016 Lottery Pick surprise (thanks, Masai)

[KeonClark]

i don't see us getting a top ten pick as very likely. not because i think ny is good or anything but because there's a lot of parity at the bottom (and near the top) of the league this year. currently only three games separate brooklyn with the 4th worst record and washington with the 12th worst. NY and brooklyn are the only teams with no incentive to lose so i think down the stretch they'll separate themselves a bit from the other also-rans and end up in the late lotto.

They already don't want to lose, but here they are losing. Knicks started decent and are imploding. They really just have a promising rookie and a selfish shot jacker. New York ain't separating from shit the East is strong and competitive. I think we'll end up picking 7th or 8th depending on how the lottery goes

[chris]

They already don't want to lose, but here they are losing. Knicks started decent and are imploding. They really just have a promising rookie and a selfish shot jacker. New York ain't separating from shit the East is strong and competitive. I think we'll end up picking 7th or 8th depending on how the lottery goes

right, and other bad teams are winning a bit more because it's early in the season and it's still full of promise. but near the end of the season the other also-rans will recognize it's in their best interest to drop a few because they're not coached by dwayne casey whereas NY and brooklyn have literally no incentive to do so. division rivals own their picks so it's in their best interest to make those picks as bad as possible.

[raptors999]

1) Spurs didn't start slow this year
2) "good teams win more at the end" is just a statement you made without facts, great teams win throughout
3) I'm not arguing with the fact that we need to win late, I'm arguing with how you come discredit every win. Like we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. Beat the Spurs, and Pop didn't care, nobody cared. Lose to the Spurs, Raptors suck. I don't get what the problem is with winning games

They get better every year after the ASG. Almost unbeatable in some years like GSW start. Cavs looked early lost last year and Miami before, Spurs start slower than they finish. Name a single teasm that limps into the playoffs and does well. Indy was a classic start strong team that faded and looked really weak in the playoffs.

I'm not discrediting wins but the entire approach, just like the early garbage offense last year. Playoff teams can win without trying to accumulate win early knowing they are going to fade against the teams that they have to face in the playoffs who are getting stronger. Its a strategy that first round exit teams use. Beat the Cavs, Bulls and Pacers after they get settled after the ASG not after Halloween

[raptors999]

right, and other bad teams are winning a bit more because it's early in the season and it's still full of promise. but near the end of the season the other also-rans will recognize it's in their best interest to drop a few because they're not coached by dwayne casey whereas NY and brooklyn have literally no incentive to do so. division rivals own their picks so it's in their best interest to make those picks as bad as possible.

There is alot of clustering for 8th. Everyone except Philly has a shot. Knicks will be out pretty quick and then the Melo trade talks starters. Even now Melo is whining

[Bendit]

right, and other bad teams are winning a bit more because it's early in the season and it's still full of promise. but near the end of the season the other also-rans will recognize it's in their best interest to drop a few because they're not coached by dwayne casey whereas NY and brooklyn have literally no incentive to do so. division rivals own their picks so it's in their best interest to make those picks as bad as possible.

I think that is a false premise...especially at the relative beginning of a season. I think you are also assuming that players somehow have the draft positioning of their franchise in mind when playing games. I dont think there is any evidence of that at all.

Imo...teams win or lose because of their talent and support system (eg coaching etc).The other wild card is character of especially their better players. Towards the 4th qtr of the season when losing has accumulated and making the playoffs is a mirage many players just give up (unless they have personal motivation for their next contract)...thats when teams have no real incentive to play hard and just go thru the motions. It is in this context that I expect the Knicks to fold as they have done so many times before especially with Melo at the helm...he just hasnt shown that fortitude thing when the chips are down. This year his best sidekick #2 is a rookie. He has shown talent to be sure but we know what happens to rooks towards the end of the first season when they are overplayed.

All to say I remain optimistic about the Knicks chances...as a Raptors fan of course!

[chris]

I think that is a false premise...especially at the relative beginning of a season. I think you are also assuming that players somehow have the draft positioning of their franchise in mind when playing games. I dont think there is any evidence of that at all.

Imo...teams win or lose because of their talent and support system (eg coaching etc).The other wild card is character of especially their better players. Towards the 4th qtr of the season when losing has accumulated and making the playoffs is a mirage many players just give up (unless they have personal motivation for their next contract)...thats when teams have no real incentive to play hard and just go thru the motions. It is in this context that I expect the Knicks to fold as they have done so many times before especially with Melo at the helm...he just hasnt shown that fortitude thing when the chips are down. This year his best sidekick #2 is a rookie. He has shown talent to be sure but we know what happens to rooks towards the end of the first season when they are overplayed.

All to say I remain optimistic about the Knicks chances...as a Raptors fan of course!

i basically agree with all of this - players don't play for draft position (ben uzoh says hi!), system and talent dictate records above all else, and the character of marquee players is critical - but smart franchises will just sit players with nagging injuries and flu-like symptoms down the stretch once they the post-season is out of reach. good time to encourage your all star to get that surgery they would have had in the off-season too to take a look at someone on the d-league squad. take a look at these warriors lineups down the stretch that netted them barnes. miami did it too for rose (lol). there are examples every year. the knicks and brooklyn will not do this. and a a game or two is all it will take if it's still all bunched up down the stretch to move from 9th to 5th (for example).

anyhow i hope you're right!

[tonious35]

[Chr1s1anL]

I like basketball and the Raptors are the closest team. Running a winning record early in basketball is stupid. Spurs wait until after the ASG to go on runs.

Spurs have the second best record in the league?

[blackjitsu]

36 wins is reasonable, and most teams that improved that much would have a draft pick coming that would help push them into the playoffs. The Knicks don't. And as long as Melo is there no player worth their weight is going to sign there because he doesn't pass... I wonder if Melo is trade-able?

[Bendit]

36 wins is reasonable, and most teams that improved that much would have a draft pick coming that would help push them into the playoffs. The Knicks don't. And as long as Melo is there no player worth their weight is going to sign there because he doesn't pass... I wonder if Melo is trade-able?

He is tradeable alright (see Bargnani). Of course he has a large price tag now so the same bidders during his free agency tour might still be interested but I dont know how much the Knicks can really get back for him (as a f/a he wasnt going to cost assets).

[Chr1s1anL]

He is tradeable alright (see Bargnani). Of course he has a large price tag now so the same bidders during his free agency tour might still be interested but I dont know how much the Knicks can really get back for him (as a f/a he wasnt going to cost assets).

I wonder if the Knicks would trade Melo for JV/Ross and our pick in 2016.

[Just Is]

I wonder if the Knicks would trade Melo for JV/Ross and our pick in 2016.

How bad do you hate JV, man?

That's such a bad trade (financially or basketball wise, take your pick) for so many reasons that that's the only reason I could honestly think of why you'd even promote that trade idea.

[Chr1s1anL]

How bad do you hate JV man?

I don't hate JV. I've said it before I don't think the way the game is trending and the way the Raptors wants to play fits with JV. Also I can't get over the fact that Ross' and JV's extensions add up to the full max.

[Shantz]

36 wins is reasonable, and most teams that improved that much would have a draft pick coming that would help push them into the playoffs. The Knicks don't. And as long as Melo is there no player worth their weight is going to sign there because he doesn't pass... I wonder if Melo is trade-able?

Melo has a no trade clause, meaning the Knicks would need to get his permission on any deal. Which means the Knicks would need to not only find a deal that provides them with the assets they need, but find a deal that Melo would agree to.

My guess is after the narrative of New York giving up too many assets when trading for Melo, and the few years he has spent without enough help in New York, Melo would probably want to make sure he is still going to a team/situation that would have enough to compete moving forward.

Bad odds for a trade when there are that many parties to appease and very specific needs for everyone involved.

[Chr1s1anL]

Melo has a no trade clause, meaning the Knicks would need to get his permission on any deal. Which means the Knicks would need to not only find a deal that provides them with the assets they need, but find a deal that Melo would agree to.

My guess is after the narrative of New York giving up too many assets when trading for Melo, and the few years he has spent without enough help in New York, Melo would probably want to make sure he is still going to a team/situation that would have enough to compete moving forward.

Bad odds for a trade when there are that many parties to appease and very specific needs for everyone involved.

Plus Melo is getting old(Melo is 31) and he knows that window is closing for to get a ring as the guy. Melo seems like a guy that cares about his legacy in the league. All his draft class mates(LBJ, Wade and Bosh) are all champions.