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Thread: Trade Partners Interested in Expiring Contracts

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Trade Partners Interested in Expiring Contracts

    Between Evans, Banks and Belinelli the Raptors have $12.2M in expiring contracts for the 2010/2011 season. With the current poor economy and at least half the league losing money these contracts may be worth more than you think. If Bosh leaves I think these contracts should not be used in any deal around Bosh. They are separate valuable assets and the team that's getting Bosh will probably be paying 60 cents on the dollar anyway... That's enough, isn't it? So, with that said let's look at some potential teams who might really be interested in expiring contracts:

    New Orleans
    Likely player: Emeka Okafor, $52M remaining over 4 years

    Washington
    Likely player: Gilbert Arenas, $80M remaining over 4 years

    Phoenix
    Likely Player: Steve Nash, $22M remaining over 2 years
    Likely Player: Leandro Barbosa, $15M remaining over 2 years

    Sacramento
    Likely Player: Andres Nocioni, $14M over 2 years

    Golden State
    Likely Player: Corey Maggette, $31M over 3 years

    Philadelphia
    Likely Player: Andre Iguodala, $56M over 4 years
    Likely Player: Elton Brand, $51M over 3 years

    Detroit
    Likely Player: Richard Hamilton, $38M over 3 years

    L.A. Clippers
    Likely Player: Baron Davis, $42M over 3 years

    Out of this list the lowest risks would be Nash, Rip, Barbosa, Maggette and Noc. Contracts they should stay away from would include Brand and probably Quick Draw... Even the Mr. Locked N. Loaded may make a big time comeback. Risky contracts that could pay off would include Iggy, Davis and Okafor. Some of these guys would require more than just expiring contracts but that's where the lotto pick would come in handy.
    Last edited by Apollo; Tue Apr 20th, 2010 at 09:07 AM.

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    No one's very appealing from that list... maybe Okafor because it helps replace Bosh's rebounding and gives us a strong post defender. But New Orleans just changed owners so who knows if they're still hurting for cash. Seeing as how they're just a shade under the luxury tax and missed the playoffs by a long shot, he might be obtainable.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Most those guys are far more appealing than Reggie Evans, Marcus Banks and Marco Belinelli.

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    Raptors Republic Starter AJ360's Avatar
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    I think any player on that list that is a poor defender, ie. Rip Hamilton, Corey Magette, Baron Davis(can be a great defender when he's 'on') should just be avoided at all costs.

    Adding a player like that really isnt a forward step, its just a side step because the Raptors can already score, they just cant defend.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Good thoughts however most likely passing on all couldn't hurt.

    They seem to be either past their prime and only pieces you would add to a team that is one player away from a NBA title

    The others; BC can do better.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote AJ360 wrote: View Post
    I think any player on that list that is a poor defender, ie. Rip Hamilton, Corey Magette, Baron Davis(can be a great defender when he's 'on') should just be avoided at all costs.

    Adding a player like that really isnt a forward step, its just a side step because the Raptors can already score, they just cant defend.
    So you would rather let Evans, Banks and Belinelli expire than trade for Rip, Corey or Baron? I'm not feeling that personally...

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    No interest -- Nash + Rip + Emeka + Arenas + Brand + Barbosa + Nocioni

    Mild interest -- Baron + Maggette

    Strong interest -- nobody

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    The expiring contracts have solid value but they'll have to be coupled with another asset (like DeRozan) to bring home a top player (like Iggy) who isn't on the wrong side of 30 or riddled with injuries.

    A second list of players who may be available for expirings + DeRozan or lottery pick may be a lot more interesting to look at.

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    I'd rather let the contracts expire than get most of those guys.

    The only guys I'd really want is Iguodala.

    Okafor might be appealing.

    Steve Nash is NOT available. They just extended his contract and they just won 50 games with him.

    That's it. The rest would be available for a very good reason. The last thing I'd want to do is grab more bad contracts for mediocre or aging players who will not improve the team.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I don't think you'd need to include DeRozan for some of these guys. For example the Clippers and Warriors were rumored to be wanting to rid themselves of those guys shortly after signing them. The both could use the cap relief to become major players in the 2011 free agent class. Something important to two teams rebuilding around new young stars. Davis and Maggette both don't seem to be part of those teams future plans. I think their contracts are going to slow down their teams' growth in a new direction.
    Last edited by Apollo; Tue Apr 20th, 2010 at 11:30 AM.

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    Davis is a 30 year old, generally overweight player who relies mostly on athleticism, has missed at least 15 games 5 of the last 7 years, is often unmotivated, has a CAREER .409 FG% and has never been a very good defender. The CLippers biggest mistake in the last ten years (and there's been a lot of them), was overpaying Baron Davis. He's basically only had two good years in his ten years in the NBA, and that was on a Golden State team where he was given completely free reign. There's probably a reason he's not in the Clippers future plans. Nor should he be. In anyone's.

    Maggette came into the league with a lot of potential, but continually playing for lottery teams has made him into an extremely selfish player who stopped playing defense years ago and has picked up so many bad habits playing for bad teams he will never be able to contribute on a contending team. He needs the ball all the time to be effective because he's a volume scorer, but he doesn't do anything else. He's the anti-Shane Battier.

    Gilbert Arenas, when he wasn't being charged with a federal crime, was an shoot first (and second, and third) PG who has never appeared mentally stable, which is probably not something you want from the guy who dominates the ball. And he doesn't really play much defense. And he hasn't played more than 32 games in THREE YEARS!!!!! And let's just get this out there. He pulled a gun on a teammate because he beat him in poker.

    Please don't ever mention any of those players again as potential Raptors without typing something like "LOL" after it.

    Thank you.

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    Apollo

    I like where your heads at, but you seem to have targeted all the players in the league with worse contracts than the guys we have. I'm down to package Jose/Turk for Gilbert, but it seems nonsensical to package our expirings to absorb these awful contracts.

    If we are taking back any of those deals, I want young talent as well.

    I'll take Emeka with Collison thrown in, Maggette with Brandon Wright, Brand with Lou Willians and Gilbert with the provision that he becomes a regular contributor to Raptors Republic.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Mo,

    I've targeted three kinds of teams.
    1.) Those who has been reported as losing money or are likely to be losing money. They have to be small market teams who can't sustain loses for too long.
    2.) Those who, if they could clear a big contract off the books in 2011, could hit the free agent market then and do a proper rebuild.
    3.) Those who are a mixture of the first two kinds.

    After identifying these teams I then looked at what contracts on these teams would likely be on the table if the team were seeking to fulfill one of the three above scenarios, (ie: saving money and/or doing a proper rebuild in 2011). What that leads you to are typically bad contracts or big contracts. Its easy to look at trades from our perspective and shoot for the moon but that's not realistic. I try to place myself in the other team's shoes. If they're looking to save money or rebuild or both, which are the three scenarios where expiring deals are worth anything, then they're going to want to eject a big contract. Typically a bloated one. That's the reality of it all. So then it all comes back to one question, is Colangelo full of shit? If he's full of shit then he lets the contracts expire or makes a minor move with no long term commitment. If he's not full of shit then he makes a move and takes a chance. If he's telling the truth then he wants to spend and if you look at the Raptors' roster Andrea, Jose and Hedo pretty much insure they won't have any cap space for the next four years anyway; toss in Bosh and you might as well make if five or six year. What that means is cap space means nothing to the Raptors from here on out. Second, if Colangelo is truthful he knows he needs to spend to win and seeing as the team is capped one more big contract means little if its a good player. He did after all just say he's willing to pay tax.

    Hope this explains my list. I'm not saying these players are all legit options, but I am saying these guys are probably the options he will have if he chooses not to give away the expiring contracts in a Bosh trade and he is telling the truth.
    Last edited by Apollo; Tue Apr 20th, 2010 at 01:43 PM.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Teams don't trade good players with good contracts for expiring contracts. Good players with good contracts is a need for any team at any stage. Teams trade good players with good contracts for other on court assets. Those statements are based on what I've been seeing over the years.

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    Good points, I've been wondering if the cap going up helps of hurts the raptors situation. It seems that it has made teams less willing to fire sale since the luxury tax burden won't be as high.

    I agree with the teams, but disagree with the philosophy. If MLSE is willing to go into the tax to finance a contender, it is only really relevant is Bosh resigns. I don't see much point in going for broke if there isn't a clear vision or foundation for present as well as future success. Spending money does not equate success, but it certainly does help.

    I also don't think this team will be as far off from competing for the play offs if Bosh leaves than people think. He is the most replaceable franchise player in the league. The raps might not be able to find 20-10 and a consistent double team, but they could come close for a lot cheaper than 20 million per. I don't want Bosh to leave and then BC to panic trade for the first big money guy available to assuage this fan base.

    I just don't like the idea of recklessly spending money just because its available, especially if it gets you more tied down with more bad contracts. The raps shouldn't keep digging themselves deeper into a hole just because thier shovel is big enough. With Bosh, Emeka would be a perfect compliment, I think most people would support that wholly. If the raps keep adding bad contracts and not progressing they will find themselves in the Philly position of having to lie to thier fans that they are happy with thier team simply because admitting the truth means they have a ton of heavy contracts and no promise.

    To your last point, teams do trade good players with good contracts for expirings. Look at the major trades this year. Jamison and Butler were traded for essentially nothing. Butler comes off the books next year at 10 million and Jamison is on for two more years at 13 and 15. Jamison's contract isn't great, but its by no means an albatross.

    I guess I'm just more optimistic that BC can turn the expirings into a piece significantly more valuable than a good player with a bad contract, especially coming into a season where they have more value than ever with teams terrified of the new CBA.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I don't think you'd need to include DeRozan for some of these guys.
    Oh yeah, I agree. No need to include DeRozan for those players you have highlighted.

    Sorry, I wasn't clear the first time around. I was trying to say that if you included DeRozan with the expiring contracts (Reggie, Banks, Marco) you could aim for a more talented players than the one's you are currently looking at + that that incoming talent minus outgoing talent might yield a better result for the Raptors.

    That one should look at using the expiring contracts in both ways, then decide the best way to use them.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    Good points, I've been wondering if the cap going up helps of hurts the raptors situation. It seems that it has made teams less willing to fire sale since the luxury tax burden won't be as high.
    The cap isn't going up, it's going down. It was announced recently that instead of going down by $4M-5M the number now looks closer to $1M. Either way, we can't make a statement on whether it looks like teams will change their mind on cutting cost until we have something to base it on. We won't have anything to base it on until the summer. Let me ask you something. If your business is losing $15M-$20M a year and the worth of your business has been cut in half due to the economy, what would you do? I can tell the two options I'm hearing tossed around, one is sell and one is cut costs.

    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    I agree with the teams, but disagree with the philosophy. If MLSE is willing to go into the tax to finance a contender, it is only really relevant is Bosh resigns. I don't see much point in going for broke if there isn't a clear vision or foundation for present as well as future success. Spending money does not equate success, but it certainly does help.
    Its not about going for broke. Once you're over the cap its difficult to keep rising significantly unless you have a lot of escalating contracts. This is about protecting their current cap number. Letting those three contract come off the books is counter productive to winning a championship. Spending more typically results in better teams. Nine of the top spenders made the playoffs. Every legit contender is a top ten spender with maybe the exception of the Jazz, who place 11th in spending. Most highly successful teams spend a lot of money. If the Raptors let those contract expire they're filling the media with crap. I believe Colangelo is a man of integrity so I have to believe he's in it to win it. He wants to spend and said he has the green light. This means he should be protecting his current cap number for the future and possibly adding a little more. Luxury tax is only profane to some owners but it shouldn't be to us, it's not coming out of our pockets and MLSE makes lots and lots of money.

    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    I also don't think this team will be as far off from competing for the play offs if Bosh leaves than people think. He is the most replaceable franchise player in the league. The raps might not be able to find 20-10 and a consistent double team, but they could come close for a lot cheaper than 20 million per. I don't want Bosh to leave and then BC to panic trade for the first big money guy available to assuage this fan base.
    This thread isn't about that. Its about identifying some of the potential options he will be faced with.

    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    I just don't like the idea of recklessly spending money just because its available, especially if it gets you more tied down with more bad contracts. The raps shouldn't keep digging themselves deeper into a hole just because thier shovel is big enough. With Bosh, Emeka would be a perfect compliment, I think most people would support that wholly. If the raps keep adding bad contracts and not progressing they will find themselves in the Philly position of having to lie to thier fans that they are happy with thier team simply because admitting the truth means they have a ton of heavy contracts and no promise.
    This thread isn't about recklessly spending money. If the team is capped out for the next four years the salary cap is irrelevant. If they were able to cap dump one of those guys the salary cap is still irrelevant. If the team is capped and the ownership is willing to spend, then spend. Spending more is how you improve when you're capped out for the foreseeable future. Teams who cap dump usually have a window coming up to hit the free agent market or they're hurting financially or both. Toronto won't have a good window for another four years, maybe more. They're not hurting. Spend the damn money already.

    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    To your last point, teams do trade good players with good contracts for expirings. Look at the major trades this year. Jamison and Butler were traded for essentially nothing. Butler comes off the books next year at 10 million and Jamison is on for two more years at 13 and 15. Jamison's contract isn't great, but its by no means an albatross.
    Ok, so one rare example. Those don't happen very often my friend. The norm of events follow my statement.


    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    I guess I'm just more optimistic that BC can turn the expirings into a piece significantly more valuable than a good player with a bad contract, especially coming into a season where they have more value than ever with teams terrified of the new CBA.
    Name the team and player(s). I went through team by team and looked at each situation. If you can improve on my list I welcome that.

    Quote Dave wrote: View Post
    Sorry, I wasn't clear the first time around. I was trying to say that if you included DeRozan with the expiring contracts (Reggie, Banks, Marco) you could aim for a more talented players than the one's you are currently looking at + that that incoming talent minus outgoing talent might yield a better result for the Raptors.

    That one should look at using the expiring contracts in both ways, then decide the best way to use them.
    I agree with this. I was just focusing on one scenario is all.
    Last edited by Apollo; Tue Apr 20th, 2010 at 03:44 PM.

  18. #18
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Most those guys are far more appealing than Reggie Evans, Marcus Banks and Marco Belinelli.
    i don't see phoenix giving up either one of those guys.

    maybe if they can't find a suitable replacement for amare if he leaves.


    maggette is trash. he wants to stay in gs anyway.

  19. #19
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    7, as in $7M. That's the Suns current cap number for the 2011/2012 season without the then 38 year old Nash and Barbosa on the books for $19M and assuming they pick up their rookie players' options that year. That's their best time to rebuild and with Nash pretty much finished, that's what they'll need to be doing anyway. Why not get a head start by one year and start the process early? Especially if Amare bails, which looks likely.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    like i said maybe if amare dips,

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