Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Raptors 2016 Trade Deadline - Dec 15th 2015 - Feb 18th 2016 @ 3pm EST

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Axel wrote: View Post
    So who can you draft with picks 2-5 that would be better than Love? That's the question Boston needs to ask.
    Brandon Igram, Dragan Bender and Kris Dunn. I feel all those guys have more upside than Love. Than again I'm one of those guys who think Love is overrated.
    @Chr1st1anL

    Comment


    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      It actually feels like a NY fantasy. Lets get rid of Melo, send an overrated player to a rival, and end up with the best young core in the conference if things go right at the draft.
      A Zinger-Simmons core would be a nightmare for the Raps and a dream come true for the NBA. The Ben Simmons draft sweepstakes would come down to NY, LA or the Sixers. And in no way, shape or form is the NBA going to reward Sam Hinkie for making a mockery out of the league. I can see this happening.

      Oh, and totally agree that Love is not a #1 player on a championship contender. A number 2 possibly, and maybe even a #3 when you factor in defense and mobility at the PF spot (which is key for that position nowadays). And isn't Kevin Love a lot shorter than people think? Thad Young, too.

      Kevin Love and height liars in shoes
      http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...liars-in-shoes

      Comment


      • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        No, that's one question.

        The first question to ask is: is Kevin Love worth giving up a pick that could net you Ben Simmons?

        That's the thing. The pick could end up being a talent who's obviously better than Love. And then even if it's not, it's entirely possible that someone, if not more than one player, in the top 5 end up comparable talent to Love, who himself was a 5th pick and not considered a "sure thing". So I'm sure it's not crazy to think at least one player in 2-5 could be better than him.
        Well I think it's the first question because if the answer is no one, then it comes down to the odds of landing #1 pick, which isn't that great. If there are 3 players that you think are better than Love, that is an entirely different equation. I don't think there are. Obviously you disagree but I'd like to hear who you think?

        If you start by asking is Love worth Simmons pick, then you are ignoring all probabilities and focusing in on one possible outcome to drive your decision.

        It is defendable to keep the pick but you are acting like its the only logical option when it really isn't.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

        Comment


        • You're getting a proven PF who can excel for a guy who seems to have a great skillset for the NBA.


          What if they hold on, get #1, draft Simmons.... and he's a bust?


          I'd do the deal.
          Axel wrote:
          Now Cody can stop posting about this guy and we have a poster to blame if anything goes wrong!!
          KeonClark wrote:
          We won't hear back from him. He dissapears into thin air and reappears when you least expect it. Ten is an enigma. Ten is a legend. Ten for the motherfucking win.
          KeonClark wrote:
          I can't wait until the playoffs start.

          Until then, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they most often stink

          Comment


          • The fly in the ointment is that Ainge has always had the hots for Love (that sounds kinky). Ainge is getting desperate...he has been trying to get a "star" for sometime now and couldnt do a thing when the Cavs trumped his offer to Minny when they gave up Wiggins for Love.

            I just read a report (Daily News) dated this morning which quotes Melo saying he isnt going anywhere. He has to waive a no-trade clause. Take it for what it's worth I suppose.

            Comment


            • Cody73 wrote: View Post
              You're getting a proven PF who can excel for a guy who seems to have a great skillset for the NBA.


              What if they hold on, get #1, draft Simmons.... and he's a bust?


              I'd do the deal.
              You play the percentages. Towns didnt turn out so bad did he? Similar type & hype.

              Comment


              • Axel wrote: View Post
                Well I think it's the first question because if the answer is no one, then it comes down to the odds of landing #1 pick, which isn't that great. If there are 3 players that you think are better than Love, that is an entirely different equation. I don't think there are. Obviously you disagree but I'd like to hear who you think?

                If you start by asking is Love worth Simmons pick, then you are ignoring all probabilities and focusing in on one possible outcome to drive your decision.

                It is defendable to keep the pick but you are acting like its the only logical option when it really isn't.
                The most logical option.

                The top pick has gone to:
                -2015: 1st best odds
                -2014: 8th best odds
                -2013: 3rd best odds
                -2012: 4th best odds
                -2011: 7th best odds (btw an unprotected pick that was considered low value, but turned out to get the top pick)
                -2010: 5th best odds
                -2009: 3rd best odds
                -2008: 9th best odds
                -2007: 7th best odds
                -2006: 5th best odds

                Not every year is the top player worth it, but this year it's a guy who has a chance to be real special. Possibly the most unique player to be drafted since James. 2011 is why you don't trade unprotected picks. There's no way for Boston to cover their ass in this case, which makes it a horrible idea. High lottery picks are always among the most valuable pieces right after true superstars (which Love is not), since they are the most likely pieces to net the latter, be it through use or trade. You don't trade them for overrated all-stars, and you never trade them in a year like this one, especially when there's no way to add protection.

                As for the draft, it's far too early to guess, but we're fucking fans man. Could Ingram or Bender be better? Heck, Murray could be better and his stock has basically been hit by KU not dominating like last year and him having to adapt his play to fit in with other ballhandlers on the court. Will there be one or two guys who are late risers (maybe Murray being one of them)? It's not that weird.

                But no, screw all that. Kevin Love can give you 20 and 10 if you cater your strategy completely to getting him those numbers and don't care about his shortcomings, or the fact that he's been the #1 option on a bad team, and has moped about being the #3 option on a contender.

                Comment


                • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                  The most logical option.

                  The top pick has gone to:
                  -2015: 1st best odds
                  -2014: 8th best odds
                  -2013: 3rd best odds
                  -2012: 4th best odds
                  -2011: 7th best odds (btw an unprotected pick that was considered low value, but turned out to get the top pick)
                  -2010: 5th best odds
                  -2009: 3rd best odds
                  -2008: 9th best odds
                  -2007: 7th best odds
                  -2006: 5th best odds

                  Not every year is the top player worth it, but this year it's a guy who has a chance to be real special. Possibly the most unique player to be drafted since James. 2011 is why you don't trade unprotected picks. There's no way for Boston to cover their ass in this case, which makes it a horrible idea. High lottery picks are always among the most valuable pieces right after true superstars (which Love is not), since they are the most likely pieces to net the latter, be it through use or trade. You don't trade them for overrated all-stars, and you never trade them in a year like this one, especially when there's no way to add protection.

                  As for the draft, it's far too early to guess, but we're fucking fans man. Could Ingram or Bender be better? Heck, Murray could be better and his stock has basically been hit by KU not dominating like last year and him having to adapt his play to fit in with other ballhandlers on the court. Will there be one or two guys who are late risers (maybe Murray being one of them)? It's not that weird.

                  But no, screw all that. Kevin Love can give you 20 and 10 if you cater your strategy completely to getting him those numbers and don't care about his shortcomings, or the fact that he's been the #1 option on a bad team, and has moped about being the #3 option on a contender.
                  So many things here, not even sure where to start.

                  The lovely list proves absolutely nothing. The odds are still the odds, regardless of how many times each draft slot has won the lotto. Still not great odds.

                  No insight on draftees cause we are fans? Seriously? What a cop out and doesn't change the fact that the Boston Celtics are very much in the business of making that assessment, so your logic falls short there.

                  As for scoffing at 20&10 players, that's insane. There are only a handful of players who can give you 20&10 nightly and none of them are as good of a shooter as Love. There is zero evidence of him moping in Cleveland either, so really your just offering a single possibility due to your blatant bias. Minnesota had one of the most incompetent front offices during Love's time in the competitive West. Really blaming it all on Love?

                  And you don't have to cater to him anymore than any other star player. How great is LeBron if you take the ball out of his hands? Not nearly as effective. Taking Love away from the elbow is a strategic failing by the Cavs and offers a chance to get a great player who is available below market value. Makes complete sense for Boston to roll the die if they don't love anyone after Simmons.
                  Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                  If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                  Comment


                  • Axel wrote: View Post
                    He would be. Elite rebounder. Elite shooter for the position. Elite outlet passer.

                    He's not a great defender but neither is Demar and it's working. If a guy is elite at enough things, you make the defensive adjustments.
                    It's not like he'd be worse than Scola.

                    From what I've seen Love has decent defensive numbers. The thing about him is while he's pretty bad in P&R he actually is solid on D because he's an elite defensive rebounder, meaning between him and Val teams would not get many second chance points against us. Plus he's a great break starter off the rebound with his outlet passes.

                    I'd love (ha) to have Love here. Just not being used right in Cleveland at all and he'd be an excellent fit here.

                    Comment


                    • I also wanna point out that Boston can't protect that Nets pick. You either trade it or you don't, you can't protect draft picks acquired from another team.

                      Comment


                      • JWash wrote: View Post
                        It's not like he'd be worse than Scola.

                        From what I've seen Love has decent defensive numbers. The thing about him is while he's pretty bad in P&R he actually is solid on D because he's an elite defensive rebounder, meaning between him and Val teams would not get many second chance points against us. Plus he's a great break starter off the rebound with his outlet passes.

                        I'd love (ha) to have Love here. Just not being used right in Cleveland at all and he'd be an excellent fit here.
                        The problem with that is PnR are probably the most used play in NBA. Especially if the team knows your bigs can't guard it.
                        @Chr1st1anL

                        Comment


                        • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                          The problem with that is PnR are probably the most used play in NBA. Especially if the team knows your bigs can't guard it.
                          Yes, it would be a weakness that we would need to adapt for. But it would give you a boost in other areas that make it worth it.

                          Unfortunately, it's not likely an issue that we have to concern ourselves with. Boston or Cleveland can adapt.
                          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                          Comment


                          • You also have to take in Love's injury history. I think his getting close to being considered injury prone.
                            @Chr1st1anL

                            Comment


                            • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                              You also have to take in Love's injury history. I think his getting close to being considered injury prone.
                              Disagree.

                              - He's been healthy this year.
                              - Was healthy last year minus Olynyk yanking his shoulder out of place
                              - Was healthy in 2013-14
                              - Had an injury to his shooting hand in 2012-13 that saw him miss most of the season, not something that's career threatening or likely to be a regular occurrence.
                              - Missed a few games in the lockout year due to a suspension (stepping on Scola) and some minor things that had him out for 11 games total
                              - Groin injury in 2010-11, nothing major
                              - Freak hand injury in his second year prior to the start of the season
                              - Nothing of note in his rookie year

                              Comment


                              • Axel wrote: View Post
                                So many things here, not even sure where to start.

                                The lovely list proves absolutely nothing. The odds are still the odds, regardless of how many times each draft slot has won the lotto. Still not great odds.

                                No insight on draftees cause we are fans? Seriously? What a cop out and doesn't change the fact that the Boston Celtics are very much in the business of making that assessment, so your logic falls short there.

                                As for scoffing at 20&10 players, that's insane. There are only a handful of players who can give you 20&10 nightly and none of them are as good of a shooter as Love. There is zero evidence of him moping in Cleveland either, so really your just offering a single possibility due to your blatant bias. Minnesota had one of the most incompetent front offices during Love's time in the competitive West. Really blaming it all on Love?

                                And you don't have to cater to him anymore than any other star player. How great is LeBron if you take the ball out of his hands? Not nearly as effective. Taking Love away from the elbow is a strategic failing by the Cavs and offers a chance to get a great player who is available below market value. Makes complete sense for Boston to roll the die if they don't love anyone after Simmons.
                                Ok, in no particular order.

                                Simmons is putting up 20 and 10 type numbers as a freshman in college, with a fully rounded game on top of it. Looking like a a stud. So lets start by saying he could be a generational talent. A legit one. Those guys are rare, even as #1 picks go. Odds are odds, but it is still a lottery, and they'll have better odds than probably at least 26 other teams(16 of which don't even get a chance). They should give that up because Love can put up 20 and 10? Well so can Ben Simmons it seems. With better passing, defence and probably leadership.

                                And yes, we are fans, so yeah, it's not a cop out. How hard were you banging the Nik Stauskas drum two years ago? I remember you being all over him. No doubt in your mind he'd be a great player because he could shoot and had a nice skill set, and all his skills would translate. I remember having arguments because I thought he'd have trouble adjusting physically and wouldn't be able to get his own shot off against NBA level defenders nearly as easily as he did in college. Being skeptical about the draft just makes sense, especially as fans, since we have very limited information about these guys.
                                ->This time last year, Porzingis still looked miles away from where he is now...his physicality hadn't improved much at all between years in Europe and he seemed like he might not be able to handle that aspect of the NBA (not an uncommon thing with tall lanky guys). Look at him now? Looks like the 2nd best player in the draft after Towns, and a potential superstar. Knicks had the 2nd best odds last year, ended up with the 4th pick, and very well could have benefited because of "bad luck" at the lottery for a guy who at this time last year was not really in the conversation for top 5 (maybe an outside shot at 5) pick. And yes, this is in hindsight, but that doesn't mean that if NYK had a similar opportunity to make a similar trade last year, they should've taken it. It would've taken foresight at that time to be like "where we are now I don't need to rush to add a star, and if I draft one I can build with/around him for the next 5-10 years". Whereas you're saying you would've been like "Towns is the only obvious stud and I don't have the best shot at him, so I should trade the pick for an all-star without question if one's available". Would NYK be better off with Kevin Love instead of Porzingis today? With Melo hobbled would they really be any better? How about their future?

                                So yes, we're fans, we have limited information on these guys and it's still super fucking early in the process, and you'd be the most condescending asshole in the world to think that because you don't see a guy who could be better than Love, there isn't likely to be one. Seriously. Again, Love was a #5 pick who was not considered a sure thing, and he's an all-star who you'd be willing to give up one of the best shots at arguably the most intriguing prospect in over a decade for, whose game is being compared to guys who are in conversations among all-time greats. And then on top of that there may be players that when we end up in June, do look like they have a chance to be a top 2-3 player on a great team, which is the best Kevin Love could ever hope for, and the situation he's currently crying himself out of in Cleveland. *And yeah, I'm going to call it crying since a stretch 4 had to previously adapt his game away from being a #1 option to play/win with LeBron and had no trouble setting his ego aside and embracing it. Lots of chatter since Love got to Cleveland about not feeling involved enough and not being very happy.

                                How great is LeBron if you take the ball out of his hands? Still pretty fucking great, and you'd be the dumbest coach of all time trying to take the ball out of his hands. And for the record, LeBron has frequently raised the level of play of guys around him. Kevin Love never has.

                                Talk about blatant bias. Way to try and make your entire argument a direct attack at me for thinking a top 3-4 chance at one of the most hyped up prospects of all time is something you don't trade and you'd have to be a bad manager to do so. But no, the odds are good you don't get that pick (which is the case for every team every year, so should the worst team in the league never hang onto their own pick because there's a good chance it won't be top overall? fucking dumbest thing I've heard since the last time 10forthewin posted a trade idea), and 2-5 may not clearly be better than Love, so lets trade the pick for him.
                                Last edited by white men can't jump; Sat Feb 13, 2016, 03:33 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X