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Raptors 2016 Trade Deadline - Dec 15th 2015 - Feb 18th 2016 @ 3pm EST

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  • Didn't he get injured just before the All-Star break?
    @Chr1st1anL

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    • Axel wrote: View Post
      Love is better than you think. Still an elite rebounder and shooter for his size. Just because Cleveland has misused him doesn't mean he isn't a top 5 PF in this league.

      I'm not that impressed with the rest of the top 10 draft class after Simmons. If Boston feels that way, then they would likely make the deal. No arrogance in saying that. Perhaps some in your claims though.
      Cleveland has not done a good job in keeping the value level of Kevin Love high. Love also has the stigma attached to him of being a little soft and injury prone. All this to say his overall valuation is perhaps equal to or even a little lower than the last established sell price for Love when he moved from Minny to Cleveland.

      So lets see what the Cavs ponied up.
      They gave up Andrew Wiggins the overall 1st pick. Also itemized on the bill of sale was Anthony Bennett who would be considered when traded a project with some promise at best and they gave up a sure thing in Thad Young as a starter.

      So using the Raps as the landing spot because we sure could use what Love brings to the party tarnished and injury prone as he is. So whats equal value from the Raps to equate to what Cleveland paid. ?

      We just don't have a Wiggins like player on the roster or a pick as a compare. The closest we could do is the Knicks pick which is likely top 10 and another first. Have to make it up elsewhere or argue that Love is hurt.
      The Bennett as a project with promise might equate to Norman Powell or Bebe or both.
      The bona fide starter would have to be Demarre Carroll who Cleveland could use.

      Do you do it ?

      I think if I get to be GM for a day I would. Bebe and Powell are not regulars yet and do show more than a bit of promise. That one hurts but Love isn't "just" an everyday player. One of the two will be a rotation player someday and somewhere and will wind up better than Bennett did in Minny. The Knicks first round pick is found money and another 1st pick pick would be needed possibly a third low end first rounder. Its still not Wiggins.. but then Kevin is getting hurt a lot and is on contract for a bazzillion dollars and Cleveland gets some luxury tax relief. Giving up Carroll is really really tough. But, if you want something good you have to give up something good.

      Does Cleveland do this ? Not sure. They win games with him and they win games without him. The intangible is that there is something going on between him and the untitled assistant GM LBJ that makes moving him easier if they see something that helps them win now. That something is Demarre Carroll.
      Last edited by Demographic Shift; Sat Feb 13, 2016, 03:55 PM.
      There's no such thing as a 2nd round bust.
      - TGO

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      • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        Ok, in no particular order.

        Simmons is putting up 20 and 10 type numbers as a freshman in college, with a fully rounded game on top of it. Looking like a a stud. So lets start by saying he could be a generational talent. A legit one. Those guys are rare, even as #1 picks go. Odds are odds, but it is still a lottery, and they'll have better odds than probably at least 26 other teams(16 of which don't even get a chance). They should give that up because Love can put up 20 and 10? Well so can Ben Simmons it seems. With better passing, defence and probably leadership.

        And yes, we are fans, so yeah, it's not a cop out. How hard were you banging the Nik Stauskas drum two years ago? I remember you being all over him. No doubt in your mind he'd be a great player because he could shoot and had a nice skill set, and all his skills would translate. I remember having arguments because I thought he'd have trouble adjusting physically and wouldn't be able to get his own shot off against NBA level defenders nearly as easily as he did in college. Being skeptical about the draft just makes sense, especially as fans, since we have very limited information about these guys.
        ->This time last year, Porzingis still looked miles away from where he is now...his physicality hadn't improved much at all between years in Europe and he seemed like he might not be able to handle that aspect of the NBA (not an uncommon thing with tall lanky guys). Look at him now? Looks like the 2nd best player in the draft after Towns, and a potential superstar. Knicks had the 2nd best odds last year, ended up with the 4th pick, and very well could have benefited because of "bad luck" at the lottery for a guy who at this time last year was not really in the conversation for top 5 (maybe an outside shot at 5) pick. And yes, this is in hindsight, but that doesn't mean that if NYK had a similar opportunity to make a similar trade last year, they should've taken it. It would've taken foresight at that time to be like "where we are now I don't need to rush to add a star, and if I draft one I can build with/around him for the next 5-10 years". Whereas you're saying you would've been like "Towns is the only obvious stud and I don't have the best shot at him, so I should trade the pick for an all-star without question if one's available". Would NYK be better off with Kevin Love instead of Porzingis today? With Melo hobbled would they really be any better? How about their future?

        So yes, we're fans, we have limited information on these guys and it's still super fucking early in the process, and you'd be the most condescending asshole in the world to think that because you don't see a guy who could be better than Love, there isn't likely to be one. Seriously. Again, Love was a #5 pick who was not considered a sure thing, and he's an all-star who you'd be willing to give up one of the best shots at arguably the most intriguing prospect in over a decade for, whose game is being compared to guys who are in conversations among all-time greats. And then on top of that there may be players that when we end up in June, do look like they have a chance to be a top 2-3 player on a great team, which is the best Kevin Love could ever hope for, and the situation he's currently crying himself out of in Cleveland. *And yeah, I'm going to call it crying since a stretch 4 had to previously adapt his game away from being a #1 option to play/win with LeBron and had no trouble setting his ego aside and embracing it. Lots of chatter since Love got to Cleveland about not feeling involved enough and not being very happy.

        How great is LeBron if you take the ball out of his hands? Still pretty fucking great, and you'd be the dumbest coach of all time trying to take the ball out of his hands. And for the record, LeBron has frequently raised the level of play of guys around him. Kevin Love never has.

        Talk about blatant bias. Way to try and make your entire argument a direct attack at me for thinking a top 3-4 chance at one of the most hyped up prospects of all time is something you don't trade and you'd have to be a bad manager to do so. But no, the odds are good you don't get that pick (which is the case for every team every year, so should the worst team in the league never hang onto their own pick because there's a good chance it won't be top overall? fucking dumbest thing I've heard since the last time 10forthewin posted a trade idea), and 2-5 may not clearly be better than Love, so lets trade the pick for him.
        Ah, so because Nik Stauskas has yet to develop while playing on possibly the two most dis functional franchises in the league, you can't offer an opinion on risk/reward of the draft yet are comfortable telling others that what you think it's the sole option to consider.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • Axel wrote: View Post
          Ah, so because Nik Stauskas has yet to develop while playing on possibly the two most dis functional franchises in the league, you can't offer an opinion on risk/reward of the draft yet are comfortable telling others that what you think it's the sole option to consider.
          Sole option? Sure, if you really want to frame it like that. More like you'd be crazy to give up your pick this year if you have one of the best 3-4 chances in the league to get a player who could be the type that comes along maybe every 5-10 years...and you want to give up that shot before you know where your pick sits, because 5 months from the draft, you aren't impressed with the top 10 in a draft? And because Kevin Love is apparently a stud who's also been in the wrong situations I guess his whole career?

          And Stauskas may be on dysfunctional teams, but especially in Philly, he's getting plenty of opportunity to play and get up shots. There's no excuse for him to be playing this badly, especially in terms of his %s. He even got decent run in Sacto as a rookie, and would've likely gotten more if he didn't play so badly (most rookies putting up his numbers last year would not have had 73 appearances and averaged 15 mpg). They may be poorly managed teams, but there is still a game happening on the court, and both teams got him to help their situations on the court because they needed shooting, and he's shit the bed. Shooting usually isn't that hard to translate to the NBA. And if it's all in his head, that isn't more encouraging.

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          • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
            Didn't he get injured just before the All-Star break?
            Yes, but he plans on being back first game after the break. I dont know how he reinjured the same arm/shoulder but it isnt a good sign.

            Comment


            • Toronto out: Patrick Patterson, JJ, Delon Wright, 2016 1st round pick (TOR), 2017 1st round pick (LAC)
              Toronto in: Al Horford, Justin Holiday

              Atlanta out: Jeff Teauge, Thabo Seflosha
              Atlanta in: Aaron Affalo, Derrick Will, Future 1st (NYK)

              Cleveland - Boston - New York Trade
              Cleveland out: Timofey Mozgov, 2016 1st round pick, Cash Consideration
              Cleveland in: Carmelo Anthony
              Boston out: Avery Bradley, David Lee, 2016 1st round pick
              Boston in: Kevin Love, Jose Calderon
              New York out: Carmelo Anthony, Jose Calderon
              New York in: Timofey Mozgov, David Lee, Avery Bradley, 2016 1st round pick (BOS) (CLE)

              New Lineups Raps
              Lowry/Joseph
              DeRozan/Powell/JHoliday
              DMC/Ross/Bruno
              Horford/Scola/Bennett
              Val/Biyombo/Bebe

              New Lineups Hawks
              Schroeder/Mack
              Affalo/Korver/Hardaway Jr
              Bazemore/DWill
              Millsap/MScott
              Splitter/Muscala/Tavares

              New Lineups Cavs
              Irving
              Shumpert
              Lebron
              Carmelo
              TThompson

              New Lineups Celtics
              Thomas/Smart/Calderon/TRozier
              ETurner/JYoung/RJ Hunter
              Crowder/JJerebrko
              Love/Amir/JMickey
              Sullinger/Olynyk/TZeller

              New Lineups Knicks
              Teague/Galloway/JGrant
              Bradley/Thabo/SVujacic
              LThomas/CEarly
              Porzingis/Lee/Lou Amundson
              Mozgov/KOQuinn/RLopez/KSeraphin

              Winner: Raptors, Cavs
              Borderline Winner: Celtics
              Loser but Looking Good: Knicks
              Loser on the Decline: Hawks

              Raptors: We acquire Horford who could give us an extra edge when we face Lebron and the Cavs and consider if they acquire CAnthony, the Cavs would be unstoppable, acquiring Horford also secure us making to the finals.

              Cavs: They rid themself of Kevin Love but in return, they acquire players like CAnthony who by all mean make the team much more entertaining to watch, imagine two superstars in Lebron and Carmelo who once goes head to head with another, it's like Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley play on the same team along with a ball handler in Kyrie Irving. Man the Cavs just become that much more powerful for a chance to win the championship.

              Celtics: The Celtics acquire a Larry Bird type of player in Kevin Love, who could really find a home and become their go to guy. The Celtics need a veteran leader and Love should give the team a run in the playoff.

              Knicks: The Knicks are into a rebuild and they will get their rebuild around Teague, Bradley, and Porzingis for years to come. They also acquire a young Center in Mozgov so the Knicks are in good hand.

              Hawks: The Hawks will not make to the playoff but they have a few draft picks to build upon. Affalo is a sharpshooter veteran the team needs and they have cash to acquire a decent wing in the offseason, dare I say, Kevin Durant.
              Last edited by tenforthewin; Sat Feb 13, 2016, 05:03 PM.

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              • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                Sole option? Sure, if you really want to frame it like that. More like you'd be crazy to give up your pick this year if you have one of the best 3-4 chances in the league to get a player who could be the type that comes along maybe every 5-10 years...and you want to give up that shot before you know where your pick sits, because 5 months from the draft, you aren't impressed with the top 10 in a draft? And because Kevin Love is apparently a stud who's also been in the wrong situations I guess his whole career?

                And Stauskas may be on dysfunctional teams, but especially in Philly, he's getting plenty of opportunity to play and get up shots. There's no excuse for him to be playing this badly, especially in terms of his %s. He even got decent run in Sacto as a rookie, and would've likely gotten more if he didn't play so badly (most rookies putting up his numbers last year would not have had 73 appearances and averaged 15 mpg). They may be poorly managed teams, but there is still a game happening on the court, and both teams got him to help their situations on the court because they needed shooting, and he's shit the bed. Shooting usually isn't that hard to translate to the NBA. And if it's all in his head, that isn't more encouraging.
                But this isn't their pick; they aren't some basement dwelling team looking at a long rebuild, so that changes things. This is a team sitting in 3rd place in the East, with the opportunity to land a star player while maintaining the rest of their team and treasure trove of picks.

                And again, 20&10 production is nothing to scoff at.

                Stauskas really isn't relevant but I will say that he was a reach (I supported him but not that high) and is a catch and shoot guy who can provide value of he were playing off of better players. He was never expected to be a star player or the primary option. If he played with a real PG and a real go to scorer, he would be producing much better and more in line with the 12-16 draft range he should have been in.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                Comment


                • And none of this is to say that the Celtics would make the deal. I simply disagree with the hard line "pass" angle that has been given.

                  Really depends on their thoughts of picks 2-5.
                  Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                  If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                  • Axel wrote: View Post
                    But this isn't their pick; they aren't some basement dwelling team looking at a long rebuild, so that changes things. This is a team sitting in 3rd place in the East, with the opportunity to land a star player while maintaining the rest of their team and treasure trove of picks.

                    And again, 20&10 production is nothing to scoff at.

                    Stauskas really isn't relevant but I will say that he was a reach (I supported him but not that high) and is a catch and shoot guy who can provide value of he were playing off of better players. He was never expected to be a star player or the primary option. If he played with a real PG and a real go to scorer, he would be producing much better and more in line with the 12-16 draft range he should have been in.
                    That team though has no bad commitments, and 3 1st round picks this draft (not likely to get the Minny one that could've made it 4), as well as a plethora of pieces that they could build offers around. Why give up literally the most valuable asset they have? If they can't get a deal done without giving up that pick, they shouldn't do it. No team should. And if Cleveland thinks they'll get that kind of asset for Love now, they're basically hoping that a team will make a bad decision because they did the same thing in the past.

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                    • man... I really hope good trade happens...
                      I don't think raptors can defeat other good eastern playoff teams like bulls

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                      • Triplethreat89 wrote: View Post
                        man... I really hope good trade happens...
                        I don't think raptors can defeat other good eastern playoff teams like bulls
                        Don't sweat the Bulls.... Noah out.. Gibson and Butler hurt and on the shelf for another month... Mirotic on the shelf as well for maybe another 2 -3 weeks with a medical condition. Starting PG Rose is in and out of the lineup a lot and backup PG is in his 13th year in the league. Rookie coach dealing with a locker room pissing match between Rose and Butler.

                        Its now conceivable that the Bulls may miss the playoffs altogether. 7th place and losers of 13 of their last 20.
                        Scary ? Not so much
                        There's no such thing as a 2nd round bust.
                        - TGO

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                        • I'm guessing no one here is interested in Melo?
                          @Chr1st1anL

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                          • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                            I'm guessing no one here is interested in Melo?
                            I don't even want to know what we'd have to send out to make the salaries match.
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                            • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                              That team though has no bad commitments, and 3 1st round picks this draft (not likely to get the Minny one that could've made it 4), as well as a plethora of pieces that they could build offers around. Why give up literally the most valuable asset they have? If they can't get a deal done without giving up that pick, they shouldn't do it. No team should. And if Cleveland thinks they'll get that kind of asset for Love now, they're basically hoping that a team will make a bad decision because they did the same thing in the past.
                              Because you can't trade scraps for elite talent. If the Knicks are willing to move Melo for picks in the 15-25 range then hells ya. I just don't see the incentive for NY to play along for those lower picks.
                              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                              • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                                I'm guessing no one here is interested in Melo?
                                Not even a little..

                                I'm really happy with the product we have, which is why the ONLY move I want to see is for Morris. I don't want to see KL, DD, DC, JV, TR, CJ, PP or BB moved.

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