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Thread: Would The Raptors Be Better If Bargnani Came In Off The Bench?

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Default Would The Raptors Be Better If Bargnani Came In Off The Bench?

    Now hold on just a minute before you go calling me crazy and other things.

    This assumes that the Raptors keep Bosh and Johnson.

    I would swap Johnson for Bargnani in the starting lineup which in no way of course who would affect who will be playing in crunch time in the 4th quarter.

    My reasoning for starting Johnson even if fouls or coaches decision limit him to 25 minutes a game is this.

    One of the biggest problems that the Raptors had last season was giving up a ton of points in the 1st quarter and falling behind up to two digits or more by the end of it.

    So it seems to me if Johnson is put into the starting lineup the Raptors are less lightly to get torched in the first quarter by opposing teams. Yes, the Raptors would score a bit less but overall it seems to me that the Raptors would have better chance of leading after quarter #1 or only being down a few points with Johnson starting alongside Bosh.

    Even if Johnson gets in early foul trouble you just bring in Bargnani a little earlier.

    The other advantage to putting Bargnani on the second unit is that with Hedo there and Jack, assuming the PG situation is the same next season.

    Those are pretty three good players to have coming in off of the bench.

    So the first unit would be the "young guns" plus CB4 plus Calderon. I think that would be a pretty athletic starting unit that could score decently and play pretty good defense. Yes I know about Calderon so for those that want an even better defense on the first unit the Raptors could start Jack.

    Though it seems to me that net net what the Raptors may lose by Calderon's less than stellar defense vs Jack's okay defense they would more than make up on the offensive side especially with the Johnson - Calderon connection that developed so very nicely last season.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    My view on this is that he has a 1st overall pick, he has a $50M contract and as such you might as well forget about him coming off the bench. For political reasons alone you won't see it happen. Then there's history. Bargnani has a history of playing better in the starting lineup than coming off the bench. I think you'll see him traded before you'll see him headed to the bench. I don't think he'll be traded.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    My view on this is that he has a 1st overall pick, he has a $50M contract and as such you might as well forget about him coming off the bench. For political reasons alone you won't see it happen. Then there's history. Bargnani has a history of playing better in the starting lineup than coming off the bench. I think you'll see him traded before you'll see him headed to the bench. I don't think he'll be traded.
    Okay I hear ya.

    But do you honestly think that if the Raptors don't make significant changes in their other three starters assuming Bosh returns that the results will be any different in 2010-11. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that that would be the case.

    You are comfortable with this?

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    I echo what Apollo said. I think the team would be BETTER if he weren't in the starting lineup, but I also think the team would be better if he weren't on the team. The problem is that he is an extremely inconsistent player who is effected by everything, and pushing him to the bench might very well kill his confidence.

    Logically, it makes a lot of sense. Bargnani is a one dimensional player, and those types of player's are much more valuable when they come off the bench and play limited minutes.

    I know it's not likely, but I really hope that Bargnani is traded so we don't have to discuss things like this. My hope is that Bosh quietly told Colangelo that Bargnani would need to be traded if they want to re-sign him.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote TIm W. wrote: View Post
    I echo what Apollo said. I think the team would be BETTER if he weren't in the starting lineup, but I also think the team would be better if he weren't on the team. The problem is that he is an extremely inconsistent player who is effected by everything, and pushing him to the bench might very well kill his confidence.

    Logically, it makes a lot of sense. Bargnani is a one dimensional player, and those types of player's are much more valuable when they come off the bench and play limited minutes.

    I know it's not likely, but I really hope that Bargnani is traded so we don't have to discuss things like this. My hope is that Bosh quietly told Colangelo that Bargnani would need to be traded if they want to re-sign him.
    Sounds like a good plan.

    How about trading Bargnani for Oden and Martell Webster?

    I know Oden has been injured, injured some more and even some more after that. But he showed last year when he was playing that he can be a real defensive force in the middle and score decently enough.

    The T-Wolves did just give Camby a two year extension and they still have Pryzbillia, who actually has a player option this summer.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote TIm W. wrote: View Post
    I know it's not likely, but I really hope that Bargnani is traded so we don't have to discuss things like this. My hope is that Bosh quietly told Colangelo that Bargnani would need to be traded if they want to re-sign him.
    There were rumblings after the Charlie V trade that Bosh wanted it to happen. He even endorsed it greatly after the fact in the media. If Bosh doesn't want Bargnani on the team I have no doubt he would voice this opinion in his list of demands. I don't think Bosh will be here after the summer and so I think Bargnani becomes even more important in Colangelo's mind.

    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Okay I hear ya.

    But do you honestly think that if the Raptors don't make significant changes in their other three starters assuming Bosh returns that the results will be any different in 2010-11. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that that would be the case.

    You are comfortable with this?
    Yes, I do think the results would be better if nothing changed. More experience for everyone means better results. Things are going to change a lot though. They need to change a lot to sell the team on Bosh. If they can't sell the team on Bosh then its a rebuild and in that scenario the team needs to change a lot. Either way expect change.
    Last edited by Apollo; Wed Apr 21st, 2010 at 01:58 PM.

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    Not happening under Jay Triano's watch

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    There were rumblings after the Charlie V trade that Bosh wanted it to happen. He even endorsed it greatly after the fact in the media. If Bosh doesn't want Bargnani on the team I have no doubt he would voice this opinion in his list of demands. I don't think Bosh will be here after the summer and so I think Bargnani becomes even more important in Colangelo's mind.



    Yes, I do think the results would be better if nothing changed. More experience for everyone means better results. Things are going to change a lot though. They need to change a lot to sell the team on Bosh. If they can't sell the team on Bosh then its a rebuild and in that scenario the team needs to change a lot. Either way expect change.
    You have been following the Raptors a lot longer than I have so I will defer to your experience and knowledge in this area.

    If Johnson and BC can agree on an amount do you think that everyone else under contract except for Johnson is available for trade.

    Yes the Raptors could do a sign and trade with Johnson if the right offer came along but if they sign him which it appears both sides want I doubt that they are both planing to do it for sign and trade purposes.

    So everyone else then becomes available in your eyes or is there another intended untouchable like Bargnani or whoever?

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    Raptors Republic Starter RikkJames's Avatar
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    Alot of these guys need a coach that will take them to the woodshed if they dont move their feet and play defense or dont want to run the offense. Sometimes it seems like some of these guys ( Bargs , Hedo ) know they're gonna play anyways, so they dont give the big effort at both ends. Barg's defense when he wants to move his feet is not that bad, he has a knack for timing his jump and blocking shots 1 on 1. But just to do it consistently is the main problem. But I think him coming off the bench would be disasterous cuz I dont think he'd give the same effort, which is scary cuz sometimes he doesnt give much to begin with.

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    haha, we have the Bargs "I'm ready to be a franchise player" thread and the "Bargs coming off the bench" thread. There is clearly a disconnect between Bargs and the fanbase.

    I think the raps desperately have to get rid of either Jose, Turk or Bargs. Generally I've been backing Bargs and hoping they ship out Jose or more likely Turk.

    The advanced stats reveal Bargs for the defensive abyss that he is and it is hard to consistently ignore the data. It seems that everyone wants to bench Jose, Turk and Bargs which turns our second unit into last seasons starting unit...not such a bad thing.

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    Chrisholm's recap of BC's press conference -- link

    Keeping Andrea

    Colangelo has never been shy about his feelings towards Andrea Bargnani. He saw a seven-footer with unlimited potential when he drafted him first-overall in 2006, and little has changed in his evaluation since.

    Despite four years of middling returns as a rebounder and team defender, Colangelo still sees nothing but blue skies in Bargnani's future as a Raptor - and make no mistake, his future is as a Raptor. If there was any thought that Bargnani's potential was going to be leveraged to try and bring in talent at another position, Colangelo eradicated that thinking this afternoon.

    He spoke often about his expectations with regards to Bargnani, about his ability to be a dominant offensive force, about his ability (and need) to improve as a rebounder and defender and about his potential as a focal point for the club should Chris Bosh choose to ply his trade elsewhere.

    Colangelo was forthright, for the most part, when it came to acknowledging Bargnani's limitations, but he certainly feels as though many of them are temporary and that Andrea will continue on an upward climb towards stardom.
    Not much chance Bargnani gets traded this offseason. It looks like he'll be with the Raptors for at least another year.

    The longer Colangelo waits before trading Bargnani the more likely fellow GM's are going to become increasingly pessimistic over his potential ... thereby lowering his trade value.

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    Quote Dave wrote: View Post
    Chrisholm's recap of BC's press conference -- link


    Not much chance Bargnani gets traded this offseason. It looks like he'll be with the Raptors for at least another year.

    The longer Colangelo waits before trading Bargnani the more likely fellow GM's are going to become increasingly pessimistic over his potential ... thereby lowering his trade value.
    Lets ask it this way:

    If Bosh and Johnson return along with Bargnani and the first unit with Bargnani in it continues to give up a ton of points in the first and third quarters would Triano have the jewels to put Bargnani on the second unit like he did Hedo?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Sounds like a good plan.

    How about trading Bargnani for Oden and Martell Webster?

    I know Oden has been injured, injured some more and even some more after that. But he showed last year when he was playing that he can be a real defensive force in the middle and score decently enough.

    The T-Wolves did just give Camby a two year extension and they still have Pryzbillia, who actually has a player option this summer.
    I'd do that deal in a heartbeat. Oden is still on his rookie contract and and he's still got a pretty big upside all things considered, I believe more so than Bargnani. They'd have a full season(hopefully it would be injury free) to assess his future and decide if they would like to re-sign him after next season or go after another free agent-to-be. He and Bosh could become front court terrors in the big-man-challenged eastern Conference for years to come.

    I'm not one for conjuring up possible trades or even discusing them but this one makes sense, at least on the Raptors side of things. Not so sure if Portland would go for it though.

    GET IT DONE BRYAN!!!
    Keep Calm & Chive On

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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Lets ask it this way:

    If Bosh and Johnson return along with Bargnani and the first unit with Bargnani in it continues to give up a ton of points in the first and third quarters would Triano have the jewels to put Bargnani on the second unit like he did Hedo?
    No, I don't think so.

    I think Bargnani is a starter and a 35 minute a night player for as long as Triano is the head coach.
    Last edited by Dave; Wed Apr 21st, 2010 at 02:38 PM.

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    Quote Mack North wrote: View Post
    I'd do that deal in a heartbeat. Oden is still on his rookie contract and and he's still got a pretty big upside all things considered, I believe more so than Bargnani. They'd have a full season(hopefully it would be injury free) to assess his future and decide if they would like to re-sign him after next season or go after another free agent-to-be. He and Bosh could become front court terrors in the big-man-challenged eastern Conference for years to come.

    I'm not one for conjuring up possible trades or even discusing them but this one makes sense, at least on the Raptors side of things. Not so sure if Portland would go for it though.

    GET IT DONE BRYAN!!!
    Trading a fine big man for an injury ridled question mark would be plain stupid...

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    Quote dn66 wrote: View Post
    Trading a fine big man for an injury ridled question mark would be plain stupid...
    It would be a one year tryout maybe two, he's an RFA after next season. Risky, not stupid.
    Keep Calm & Chive On

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    Quote dn66 wrote: View Post
    Trading a fine big man for an injury ridled question mark would be plain stupid...
    Stupid if it didn't work out and brilliant and daring if it did

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    If Johnson and BC can agree on an amount do you think that everyone else under contract except for Johnson is available for trade.
    I do. I just feel that some players will be valued more by Colangelo than by other teams. Most likely players taken 1st overall in the 2006 NBA draft.

    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    So everyone else then becomes available in your eyes or is there another intended untouchable like Bargnani or whoever?
    I think DeRozan can be placed in the same category as I placed Bargnani.

    We need to make one thing clear here. Colangelo has a history of acquiring young players with high potential, not trading them away.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I do. I just feel that some players will be valued more by Colangelo than by other teams. Most likely players taken 1st overall in the 2006 NBA draft.



    I think DeRozan can be placed in the same category as I placed Bargnani.

    We need to make one thing clear here. Colangelo has a history of acquiring young players with high potential, not trading them away.
    Maybe Bargnani lied about his age?

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    LOL, it wouldn't be the first time that happened. Greg Oden looks like he's about to hit his midlife crisis.

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