Is the D-League a Viable Way to Develop Young Players?

[LJ2]

JV got hurt vs Chicago in the first Q - how many minutes would be reasonable for Bebe to play as Biyombo's back-up over the final 3 Q? How about the next game?

Because the reality is that Bebe got zero minutes vs the Bulls and played only 3 against the Bucks. Missed opportunities are there. Bebe was at the game and dressed both times. DNP-CD and 3 MP as the only guy on the bench who is really a C.

I think you'll see the rooks getting more minutes down the stretch of the season as they try to rest the starters, but with a possible #1 seed in their grasp I don't blame them for playing their core as much as they have.

[Superjudge]

Please don't say "we".

"we" don't know a thing.

[Mess]

JV is having the best season a Raptor has ever had in terms of WS/48, and is playing the least minutes per game he's played since his rookie season. Are you SURE you want to use him as your counterpoint?

Yes.

[DanH]

We don't live in an ideal world. Sure it shouldn't, I agree but what should or shouldn't happen is different than what is likely to happen due to human nature. I don't fault Casey for playing for his career and if Ujiri doesn't like it he should give him a longer deal or show him the door. The ball is in Ujiri's court here. If Casey needs to perform to keep his job then you can't fault him for prioritizing that over development.

How about we try to view this from the viewpoints of those making the calls and not those watching this as spectators? I've told you why they're probably being played heavily and it makes sense from the decision makers viewpoint.

Ujiri is known for not interfering with his coaches - quite the anti-BC in that regard and I think it's a good thing culture wise. At the same time, we've had stories over the past two seasons that Ujiri told Casey he would be judged on development, not performance, and Casey was kept after getting embarrassingly swept in the playoffs last season, so clearly results are not all that matters.

In any case, so long as we are clear that no one is arguing that the decision makers are making the correct decision, we're good. Because they are not. These are bad decisions being made by people with their own best interests at heart and not the organization's or these young players', as you yourself argue.

If we are all on board with that, there's not much to discuss.

[JWash]

We don't live in an ideal world. Sure it shouldn't, I agree but what should or shouldn't happen is different than what is likely to happen due to human nature. I don't fault Casey for playing for his career and if Ujiri doesn't like it he should give him a longer deal or show him the door. The ball is in Ujiri's court here. If Casey needs to perform to keep his job then you can't fault him for prioritizing that over development.

How about we try to view this from the viewpoints of those making the calls and not those watching this as spectators? I've told you why they're probably being played heavily and it makes sense from the decision makers viewpoint.

Exactly! This is what's off-putting about the whole thing. Like Masai is not a fool. Do you think he doesn't know what kind of roster he put together? That if you have the 4th/5th best point guard in the league and one of the best backup point guards in the league
that your prospect PG is probably not going to get a ton of run? Do you think it's a surprise to him that Bebe doesn't get a lot of minutes when he has our brightest young player at the 5 spot and Biyombo who he obviously didn't bring here to pass out water bottles and wave a towel around?

These players need minutes.

Someone please tell me how on earth someone like Bebe is going to crack the rotation? Jonas, Bismack and Bebe are all young, and they can all only play the center position. There are 48 minutes available at center. People already complain that JV doesn't play enough at 26mpg. Well that only leaves 22 minutes, which are going to be taken by Biyombo? Or do people want to run 13 man rotations, because guess what no team in the league does that. The only reason the end of bench players in San Antonio get so much run is because their main players are ancient and they routinely blow teams out of the building.

Or how about in the backcourt. Wright can play PG maybe some SG. Powell can play 2 and some 3. When fully healthy (mind you we've been fully healthy at the 1 all year) at the 1, 2 and 3 spots we have Lowry, DeMar, Carroll, Ross, CoJo. Ok let's say we can somehow still win games with Lowry and DD only playing 30mpg as opposed to 35mpg (not true btw) and we play Ross/CoJo their 25 ish, 20 for Carroll since he plays some 4. That's 130 minutes. There are only 144 minutes AVAILABLE at those positions and you haven't even factored in JJ yet. How the heck do you fit Wright and Powell into that or Bruno for that matter?

I can understand this call to put the young guys in if they were better than the guys in the rotation, absolutely, but they're not. Is Wright better than CoJo or Lowry? No. Is Norman better than Ross or DeRozan or Carroll? Fuck no.

The reality is we aren't good enough to just smack teams in the mouth for the first 3 quarters and then put in a bunch of prospects for a whole quarter of garbage time.

And for all the talk about how much the Spurs are playing their young guys. First of all Boban does not freaking count, he's 27 years old and he only plays 8 minutes per game anyway. The only guys that get run of their young guys really are Simmons at 14mpg and Kyle Anderson at 14.7. The reason they're able to do this is because several of their older players don't play all that much. Manu plays less than 20 minutes per game, ditto for Diaw. Duncan and Parker are both playing 27 or less minutes per game. And they still have a +12 point differential. They have Popovich, we don't. They have a better team than us.

[3inthekeon]

JV is having the best season a Raptor has ever had in terms of WS/48, and is playing the least minutes per game he's played since his rookie season. Are you SURE you want to use him as your counterpoint?

Win Shares? You mean the stat that has Bismack with the 4th most Offensive Win Shares on our team and DeMar with the 3rd most Defensive Win Shares?

OK

[JWash]

And for what it's worth we have two guys on rookie contracts RIGHT NOW getting heavy minutes in JV and Ross. The Spurs do not have a single rookie contract player who plays more minutes than those guys. Fact.

[Barolt]

Exactly! This is what's off-putting about the whole thing. Like Masai is not a fool. Do you think he doesn't know what kind of roster he put together? That if you have the 4th/5th best point guard in the league and one of the best backup point guards in the league
that your prospect PG is probably not going to get a ton of run? Do you think it's a surprise to him that Bebe doesn't get a lot of minutes when he has our brightest young player at the 5 spot and Biyombo who he obviously didn't bring here to pass out water bottles and wave a towel around?

These players need minutes.

Someone please tell me how on earth someone like Bebe is going to crack the rotation? Jonas, Bismack and Bebe are all young, and they can all only play the center position. There are 48 minutes available at center. People already complain that JV doesn't play enough at 26mpg. Well that only leaves 22 minutes, which are going to be taken by Biyombo? Or do people want to run 13 man rotations, because guess what no team in the league does that. The only reason the end of bench players in San Antonio get so much run is because their main players are ancient and they routinely blow teams out of the building.

Or how about in the backcourt. Wright can play PG maybe some SG. Powell can play 2 and some 3. When fully healthy (mind you we've been fully healthy at the 1 all year) at the 1, 2 and 3 spots we have Lowry, DeMar, Carroll, Ross, CoJo. Ok let's say we can somehow still win games with Lowry and DD only playing 30mpg as opposed to 35mpg (not true btw) and we play Ross/CoJo their 25 ish, 20 for Carroll since he plays some 4. That's 130 minutes. There are only 144 minutes AVAILABLE at those positions and you haven't even factored in JJ yet. How the heck do you fit Wright and Powell into that or Bruno for that matter?

First of all, we absolutely can win games with Lowry and DeMar playing 30mpg instead of 35. Although I'd have them both closer to 32 ideally. You just play them together less, and have DeMar conserve more energy and play better defense, which is part of the problem right now. Also, get rid of Scola's minutes so we have less wasted minutes.

You don't have to find a lot of minutes for Bebe/Powell/Wright, just some.

As you mentioned, Boban is only getting 8mpg for the Spurs, but those minutes add up anyways.

As far as Ross and JV, while they're getting minutes, they aren't being used that well. They rank 7th and 8th on the team in front court touches, despite being regarded by many as the 3rd and 4th options on offense.

[JWash]

First of all, we absolutely can win games with Lowry and DeMar playing 30mpg instead of 35. Although I'd have them both closer to 32 ideally. You just play them together less, and have DeMar conserve more energy and play better defense, which is part of the problem right now. Also, get rid of Scola's minutes so we have less wasted minutes.

You don't have to find a lot of minutes for Bebe/Powell/Wright, just some.

As you mentioned, Boban is only getting 8mpg for the Spurs, but those minutes add up anyways.

As far as Ross and JV, while they're getting minutes, they aren't being used that well. They rank 7th and 8th on the team in front court touches, despite being regarded by many as the 3rd and 4th options on offense.

Ok instead of just posting that stat and leaving there. How about thinking about why that might be the case? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Ross is largely a spot-up player and a team that uses primarily pick and roll to create offense. So most of the time when he touches the ball it's to finish a play or perhaps make one extra pass. Ditto for Valanciunas. It's not like we're throwing it to JV in the high post and running the offense around him. He's used as a play finisher. Get the ball, score it.

The Spurs do the same thing with Danny Green and Tim Duncan. Who guess what, are 6th and 7th on their team in frontcourt touches per game. Should we be getting mad at Pop for not getting them more touches? Or is it because the guys ranked ahead of them are used more as creators?

[Apollo]

The thing is, the idea of playing young players in the NBA isn't exclusive to teams at the top(Spurs and Warriors do it), or teams at the bottom(76ers and Lakers do it), or teams in the middle(Wizards and Pistons do it). In fact, it seems like a very small minority of teams don't do it, and the teams that do are rewarded. The fact is, while D-League minutes are valuable, you'll never truly know what you have in any prospect until they get significant, meaningful minutes at the NBA level. The sooner you do that, the more opportunities you have to develop those players on their rookie contracts.

The reality is, we've used up a year of Powell, Wright, and Bebe's contracts this season and really don't have much to show for it.

That matters too.

I'm telling you that Casey is rolling his starters heavy because he probably thinks he needs to do so to win. People don't do things like this without having a plan. People don't achieve what Casey has achieved without having a plan. He's on a contract year and he needs to deliver. He's playing starters heavy and they're winning a lot. It's not a stretch to conclude that he's playing starters heavy because he thinks he needs in order to get the wins to keep the job.

It doesn't matter what other teams are doing. Do you think bringing that up will save his ass when he gets called into the bosses office at the end of the season? No, he needs to bring to Ujiri tangible progress: regular season wins and playoff wins. Shit, even his critics in here are saying he needs to at least get out of the first round, maybe further.

[slaw]

In any case, so long as we are clear that no one is arguing that the decision makers are making the correct decision, we're good. Because they are not. These are bad decisions being made by people with their own best interests at heart and not the organization's or these young players', as you yourself argue.

If we are all on board with that, there's not much to discuss.

No, I don't think we're all on board with that.....

[Apollo]

Ujiri is known for not interfering with his coaches - quite the anti-BC in that regard and I think it's a good thing culture wise. At the same time, we've had stories over the past two seasons that Ujiri told Casey he would be judged on development, not performance, and Casey was kept after getting embarrassingly swept in the playoffs last season, so clearly results are not all that matters.

In any case, so long as we are clear that no one is arguing that the decision makers are making the correct decision, we're good. Because they are not. These are bad decisions being made by people with their own best interests at heart and not the organization's or these young players', as you yourself argue.

If we are all on board with that, there's not much to discuss.

You can believe any stories you want. Fact of the matter is that if you lay everything out and take a birdseye view Casey is doing the opposite of placing the focus on developing prospects (ie: your goal stories). Now tell me who in their right mind is going to do the exact opposite of their job objectives on a contract year? It doesn't add up. Casey needs to win, it's clear. I don't need to be told.

The only alternative I can see is if the writing is on the wall internally, he won't be back and so now is his last chance to audition for his next job or make it difficult for Ujiri to move on. Again, this would be Casey looking out for his career by fulfilling on the primary object of the game of basketball: winning.

[JWash]

Can I just get an explanation for how we're going to fit Bebe into the rotation? When JV is getting 25-30 and Bismack 20-25mpg?

Or how about Wright? Even if we cut Lowry to 30, got CoJo at 20, Ross 20, DeRozan 32. How? Where are the minutes?

[Bandit]

Personally I don't think we can start looking at minutes comparisons of our Dleague/rookie players until the end of the season.

From my point of view we have done a great job locking in a top 2 spot in the eastern conference while finding a respectable amount of minutes for our young guys in a deep and tough rotation.

Wright has struggled to find minutes, but behind Lowry/Joseph (one a superstar and the other a probable starter on many teams) that's understandable. Even on the bench with the raps I'm sure he's getting value by getting to talk to these guys while they sit. Bebe has struggled to find minutes but again behind Biyombo and JV that's going to happen.

Until we get through the final stretch and see who gets to rest for entire games and who goes on minutes restriction I think it's tough to say how their minutes stack against others. I mean one Lowry rest game could be an extra 30 minutes for Wright, and i totally think we'll see some for JV/Demar/Lowry.

[Apollo]

Can I just get an explanation for how we're going to fit Bebe into the rotation? When JV is getting 25-30 and Bismack 20-25mpg?

Or how about Wright? Even if we cut Lowry to 30, got CoJo at 20, Ross 20, DeRozan 32. How? Where are the minutes?

My question would be why? You don't pay CoJo to bench him for a rookie especially when he's played so great. Wright needs to sit down and wait... Just like the Spurs did with CoJo.