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Carter vs. Derozan & Lowry

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  • #31
    Mess wrote: View Post
    I don't really care about age stuff when it comes to this. But if you want to take that into account and ignore DD's first 3 seasons go right ahead. 4th year on, 2 All Stars (coaches voted in right?), 2 first round exits and hell, I'll let him have 2 dunk contest losses. That's not bad. Is it worthy of the 2nd highest honour a franchise can bestow though? Maybe some day, so yeah he does have to do better than VC.

    It's not like VC negotiated that trade himself. He's not blameless for what went down but should all of the front office mistakes be put on his shoulders too?

    Anyway, if Carter's jersey isn't worthy of retirement then DD has to do a lot more than he's done so far to deserve it. That's all I'm saying. I'd like to repeat that it's just a silly jersey retirement but I guess some people hold it more sacred than I do.
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    Alright, so what's your point exactly? That it's ridiculous to have a discussion about what two current Raptors stars would need to achieve to be considered more important than Vince Carter? This is a sports discussion forum and we meet here to discuss sports. Others are doing that in here. I don't know what to tell you, if the topic isn't up to your standards then maybe you should go check out something that is.



    He doesn't need to. He needs to play high level ball for a long time here in Toronto. Longevity can beat out a shooting star. It's the same reason why T-Mac probably won't make the hall.
    I look at DeRozan potentially being a guy for the Raptors like Reggie Miller was for Indiana. Miller's Pacers never won a thing while he was there, but he was the face of the franchise for so long, while maintaining a high level of play. He wasn't game-changing, was never an MVP candidate, but he played hard and bled for that franchise for years. It's along that trajectory that I could see a player like DeRozan (if he becomes a 'lifer' and helps lead the team on multiple deep playoff runs) eventually having his Raptor jersey retired.

    For me, the issue of jersey retirement falls somewhere between 'best ever' and 'favorite', with the need for tenure/longevity included in the mix.

    Carter gets eliminated from jersey retirement consideration for these simple reasons, that have nothing to do with the off-court stuff:
    - he only played 1/3 of his career with the Raptors
    - he didn't play his prime/best years with the Raptors
    - he didn't have his greatest playoff success with the Raptors
    - he really didn't have any great on-court accomplishments with the Raptors (best one being a single 2nd-round playoff appearance)
    - the all-star stuff (including the slam-dunk contest) is all superfluous

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    • #32
      Personally I'm a fan of very high standards for jersey retirement. I don't think any Raptor to date has had the individual success or driven the team to enough success to deserve it.
      "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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      • #33
        3inthekeon wrote: View Post
        Zach Lavine already has a better highlight reel than Tim Duncan.

        Agree VC>>DD but "highlight reel" is a shitty measuring stick for being a great NBA player.
        Google "context".

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        • #34
          Mess wrote: View Post
          I should also add that I just jumped in on the jersey retirement tangent.
          That's under the umbrella. Close enough. No need to start another thread.

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          • #35
            First, you have to actually go back to when Carter arrived. Toronto was a basketball wasteland and an absolute joke of a team that was completely irrelevant. No one wanted to play in Toronto and anyone who was there wanted out. The early Raptors teams were some of the worst roster of all time. Carter changed all that. His impact went far, far beyond the court. In many ways, you could argue Carter made the Raptors - he was the Raptors. No other player is going to have that kind of impact unless, and maybe not even if, he wins a ring in Toronto. People forget how bad things were pre-VC. Let alone his impact on basketball in Canada and in Ontario, in particular.

            Second, Carter was transcendent when he wanted to be. I will never, ever forget Game 3 of that Sixers when he was just unstoppable. He had the fans hugging and dancing in the aisles (I am not joking about that) - it was insane. He beat Philly single-handedly and it is still the single greatest playoff performance ever by a Raptor. I remember the Sixers players screaming at each other heading to timeouts in the first half - Carter broke them.

            Having said all of that, Carter's teams had one good playoff run - 2000-01 - and after that he personally never went back to the playoffs. Next year's team played better without him and, while a lot of it was poor ownership and management, Carter never led the Raps anywhere meaningful after they caught lightning in a bottle that one year. Then, there was his exit from Raptorland. We all recall Carter's highlights but there were a lot of lowlights, too.

            The jersey question is fun. Would he even want to go into the Hall as a Raptor? Wouldn't he go in as a Net? If he did, would people still want his jersey retired here?

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            • #36
              Lowry could become the highest on-court impact player ever if we have a couple years of sustained deep playoff success here.

              VC will forever be the highest overall impact player though, and definitely deserves to have his jersey retired. No VC, and I think there would be a real possibility this team isn't in Toronto anymore.
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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              • #37
                So you don't think Tracy McGrady could have done what Vince did?

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                • #38
                  DanH wrote: View Post
                  Lowry could become the highest on-court impact player ever if we have a couple years of sustained deep playoff success here.

                  VC will forever be the highest overall impact player though, and definitely deserves to have his jersey retired. No VC, and I think there would be a real possibility this team isn't in Toronto anymore.
                  Impossible to know without access to a parallel universe where VC plays his entire career as a Vancouver Grizzly, but I really doubt that. The Raptors had enough success before and after Carter and have been perfectly fine from a fan support standpoint during plenty of awful, awful seasons. They're one of the worst teams in the NBA over the past 20 years.

                  Toronto's a great sports city (that loves to be hard on itself) and the Raptors have always had plenty of support across the country. Sure it's only basketball and VC absolutely helped take it to the next level for a bunch of kids here, but I strongly doubt the Raptors would have folded in Toronto without Vince. Vancouver was an entirely different situation just from the franchise perspective, and it's a very different city.
                  "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                  • #39
                    Apollo wrote: View Post
                    So you don't think Tracy McGrady could have done what Vince did?
                    Maybe? And then he would be getting his jersey retired.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • #40
                      What if JV is the starting Centre into his late 30's.. 15-18 seasons at an above average PER with some deep playoff runs to his resume. Could make a case for GOAT based on longevity and likely jersey retirement.

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                      • #41
                        DanH wrote: View Post
                        Maybe? And then he would be getting his jersey retired.
                        Tracy McGrady, seven time all star, seven time all NBA, two time scoring Champ. He left Toronto for his own team. I'm reading some suggesting without Carter the team might have folded yada yada yada but when in fact if Carter weren't here McGrady wouldn't have left. The team was going no where(as in not moving) and a single second round exit is unimpressive in most markets outside Toronto, I think anyway. If Carter never showed up we would still be here talking Toronto Raptors ball.

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                        • #42
                          The_Warlord wrote: View Post
                          What if JV is the starting Centre into his late 30's.. 15-18 seasons at an above average PER with some deep playoff runs to his resume. Could make a case for GOAT based on longevity and likely jersey retirement.
                          If JV does all that I think it's a no brainer for jersey retirement.

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                          • #43
                            DanH wrote: View Post

                            VC will forever be the highest overall impact player though, and definitely deserves to have his jersey retired. No VC, and I think there would be a real possibility this team isn't in Toronto anymore.
                            Unless they drafted Dirk cause he pretty much had the same impact long terms on Dallas.

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                            • #44
                              Apollo wrote: View Post
                              Tracy McGrady, seven time all star, seven time all NBA, two time scoring Champ. He left Toronto for his own team. I'm reading some suggesting without Carter the team might have folded yada yada yada but when in fact if Carter weren't here McGrady wouldn't have left. The team was going no where(as in not moving) and a single second round exit is unimpressive in most markets outside Toronto, I think anyway. If Carter never showed up we would still be here talking Toronto Raptors ball.
                              Yes, sure. And if they were able to draft Iverson, same idea.

                              I don't think there was ever a high chance of the Raps folding. But with Vince doing what he did, the chances went to zero, which personally I appreciate.

                              Of course T-Mac could possibly have done the same thing, though I think it's pretty foolish to be 100% certain the ONLY reason T-Mac left was Vince. Same goes for any superstar, any of which would probably be worthy of getting their jersey retired for their contributions to the team.
                              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                              • #45
                                DanH wrote: View Post
                                Yes, sure. And if they were able to draft Iverson, same idea.

                                I don't think there was ever a high chance of the Raps folding. But with Vince doing what he did, the chances went to zero, which personally I appreciate.

                                Of course T-Mac could possibly have done the same thing, though I think it's pretty foolish to be 100% certain the ONLY reason T-Mac left was Vince. Same goes for any superstar, any of which would probably be worthy of getting their jersey retired for their contributions to the team.
                                I only brought up T Mac to show how foolish it was to suggest the Raptors could have folded if not for Vince.

                                Do you have any evidence that the team was in hard shape and ownership was considering moving the team? There are cities with much smaller populations to Toronto who've been downright pathetic for pretty much decades and yet they're still there.

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