Carter vs. Derozan & Lowry

[DanH]

I only brought up T Mac to show how foolish it was to suggest the Raptors could have folded if not for Vince.

Do you have any evidence that the team was in hard shape and ownership was considering moving the team? There are cities with much smaller populations to Toronto who've been downright pathetic for pretty much decades and yet they're still there.

No evidence. Team didn't consider closing down, in my opinion largely because of the success that having an exciting team (and star) proved the team could have.

I certainly didn't mean to suggest that only Vince could have saved (also too strong a word, let's say "ensured the survival of") the team, although I can see I worded it badly. Just that he was the star who did it. If he had never been here and T-Mac had caused a similar stir and led the team to the only real success it experienced in the first decade of its existence, I'd be advocating for T-Mac's jersey retirement instead.

[Apollo]

They've had no real success, not in the playoffs anyway. Round two is not a success. He led them to their best showing. Then he gave up and quit. He acted like an unprofessional, whining baby when the team wouldn't give him more weight on personnel decisions than he should have been given in the first place. He tanked games and possibly over played injuries after he had already killed most of the leverage the team could have had in a trade when he came out demanding a trade.

All the stuff he did after the good stuff counts as well. In books anyway.

[tDotted]

They've had no real success, not in the playoffs anyway. Round two is not a success. He led them to their best showing. Then he gave up and quit. He acted like an unprofessional, whining baby when the team wouldn't give him more weight on personnel decisions than he should have been given in the first place. He tanked games and possibly over played injuries after he had already killed most of the leverage the team could have had in a trade when he came out demanding a trade..

Yeah that's why I can "only" acknowledge him as the greatest Raptor but definitely not as my favorite.

[distorsun]

For me its tough. It was all about Carter back int he day. Now we're talking about 2 players. 2 against 1 seems like a no-brainer. In all honesty, its really Lowry vs Carter. With Lowy having a Billups-like career maturation, the best could still yet come. KL over-saw b2b franchise bests in wins, and at least the prospect of a deep playoff run. If we make it to ECF this year, we could start the conversation. But Carter, man, the guy did stuff for the franchise that'll be hard to top.

Carter did things on the court which makes your brains forget what sounds your mouth is supposed to make and ended up sounding like a retard.

The last player who truly made me fell that way : Steph Curry. I watched a big chunk of GSW games and he still makes me go WTF.

My favorite VC dunk that reverse 2 hander vs Indiana.
Ok I have to many too list. In retrospect, Vince is WHY we have Wiggins, Lyles, CoJo etc.

[ebrian]

Well, Lowry and DeRozan are two players, while VC was the one player. So in measuring GOAT, it's hard to qualify a tandem going up against a single player. Greatest tandem, then you'd have to lump McGrady in there although the balance is shifted heavily over to Vince. Lowry/DeMar is like a 55/45 split, while VC/T-Mac more like 95/5 split.

With the "tandem" considered, while part of it is playoff success, but I think I'd have to consider the nostalgia factor. I'm a huge Raptors fan now, but VC is who got me to where I am. I don't think that in the last 10 years I've become a bigger fan.. my fandom was cemented with VC.

It's kind of like how I immediately agree with Scottie Pippen when he claimed his team would have swept the Warriors. I remember how good that team was, it was the team that made me the basketball fan that I am today, that team (arguably those teams) captured my imagination, became legend in my mind as one of the great sports teams in professional sports. I doubt there will ever be another team assembled today that would convince me otherwise.

So for that reason, I'd probably say that there is nothing Lowry and DeRozan can do to top VC as my favorite Raptor of all time.

It's really a discussion between scrappy vs raw talent too. Lowry and DeRozan really grind it out, whereas VC made it a lot more effortless. I mean, if VC had the kind of drive that Lowry had, and the work ethic of DeRozan, I think T-Mac would have stuck around in that level of greatness and we'd be looking at a potential dynasty.

(Others have already mentioned why I liked VC more, I just adding a few extra cents)

[Apollo]

Well, Lowry and DeRozan are two players, while VC was the one player. So in measuring GOAT, it's hard to qualify a tandem going up against a single player. Greatest tandem, then you'd have to lump McGrady in there although the balance is shifted heavily over to Vince. Lowry/DeMar is like a 55/45 split, while VC/T-Mac more like 95/5 split.

With the "tandem" considered, while part of it is playoff success, but I think I'd have to consider the nostalgia factor. I'm a huge Raptors fan now, but VC is who got me to where I am. I don't think that in the last 10 years I've become a bigger fan.. my fandom was cemented with VC.

I think you must have misread the OP:

I think it's fair to assume most consider Carter as GOAT in Toronto. If Bosh had stayed then perhaps he could have took the crown due to longevity and loyalty to the team but he bailed as well. The club does have two relatively new all stars tearing up the league in DD and Lowry.

Question: What would Lowry or DD need to do for you to consider either of them the GOAT in Toronto? Realistically do you think either can pass Vince? How about both?

[WJF]

Who is this Vince Carter guy everyone is talking about?

[Apollo]

Who is this Vince Carter guy everyone is talking about?

He's no Joe Carter, that's for sure.

He's not the greatest Carter in Toronto history. haha

[WJF]

He's not even Butch Carter

[A.I]

He's no Joe Carter, that's for sure.

He's not the greatest Carter in Toronto history. haha

Toronto must love their Carters.

[Raptor Jesus]

Toronto had a core fanbase. The same fanbase that got the original owners interested. Compelled them to lobby for expansion. Those same owners watched a rookie of the year explode on to the scene and create interest and capture casual fans.

Those same owners got the hell out after some truly terrible and lean years. The deal consummated on the backs of core fans and the upside of potential casuals. If the new owners, however deep their pockets were, didn't catch lightening in a Carter Bottle. And didn't see the upsides when casuals flocked with a new rookie of the year and dunk messiah. Would they have stuck it out? Would the Raptors follow their namesake into Extinction? Ultimately the hypotheticals don't play out, because, in some part, large or small, Carter happened.

Carter elevated the marque to an international stage.

Vince was effortlessly great. Was lucky to get one chance to apply it. It panged back iron. He was a petulant child at the end of his tenure here and was great enough to hang around the league long enough to realize it. I once swore he could do no right. He was effectively dead to me. I came around. Reconciliation felt conflated but ultimately right.

VC is our bar.

DD by the gravity of his grit, KL by sheer force of will, are entering that conversation. They turn the 3 year growth to a crescendo of ECF games or near miss of that mark they eclipse VC's high water mark.

To someone else's question of JV for 15 years at above avg PER: Yes.

A second stint of Amir, being just Amir: Yes.

Hell I'm feeling generous; if TJ Ford and Calderon work something out and get both their names on a single ticket and they got the nod too.

[ebrian]

I think you must have misread the OP:

No, I think I interpreted your post differently than you intended.

I was just trying to give Lowry and DeRozan a chance. You're asking if one guy can surpass Vince in the GOAT discussion. Realistically, I don't think either one has what it takes to ever surpass Vince in the regular season, but as a tandem they have a shot. As a tandem, with playoff success, they have a chance to put themselves, in my mind, in the discussion.

But you also have to keep in mind, that since I still consider the Bulls the greatest team ever, in order to beat the reigning GOATs, in my mind, they can't just equal previous "Legends", they have completely annihilate them. To clarify, what that means is that even if the Warriors won 73, I'd still think the Bulls were better. The Warriors would have to win 73, and still do extremely well in the playoffs, and even then I might still be convinced the Bulls were better.

So having Vince as my GOAT Raptor, means Lowry and DeRozan as a tandem would have to take us to the NBA Finals. To me that's what they would need to achieve for me to even consider them as GOAT. They have to blow the previous guy right out of the water in order to surpass, in my mind (and memories), what Vince brought for me.

Let me also point out that Vince's final season as a Raptor was terrible. He gave up on us. I hated him to my absolute core. But that's what I was talking about with the nostalgia. It's not as if the Bulls went 16-0 in their playoff run that year. But in my mind, they will be remembered as such. Because they are both distant memories, only the happy stuff makes it through. Hard to beat that.

[ebrian]

I look at DeRozan potentially being a guy for the Raptors like Reggie Miller was for Indiana. Miller's Pacers never won a thing while he was there, but he was the face of the franchise for so long, while maintaining a high level of play. He wasn't game-changing, was never an MVP candidate, but he played hard and bled for that franchise for years. It's along that trajectory that I could see a player like DeRozan (if he becomes a 'lifer' and helps lead the team on multiple deep playoff runs) eventually having his Raptor jersey retired.

For me, the issue of jersey retirement falls somewhere between 'best ever' and 'favorite', with the need for tenure/longevity included in the mix.

Carter gets eliminated from jersey retirement consideration for these simple reasons, that have nothing to do with the off-court stuff:
- he only played 1/3 of his career with the Raptors
- he didn't play his prime/best years with the Raptors
- he didn't have his greatest playoff success with the Raptors
- he really didn't have any great on-court accomplishments with the Raptors (best one being a single 2nd-round playoff appearance)
- the all-star stuff (including the slam-dunk contest) is all superfluous

I agree on the subject of jersey retirement. Even though I have Vince firmly cemented as GOAT in my mind, I don't think I would retire his jersey for the reasons you laid out above. Conceivably I could see a scenario where we had a player deserving of a jersey retirement and myself still viewing Vince as GOAT.

I don't think we have had a player yet that is deserving of a jersey retirement yet. Maybe DeRozan could be that guy, if like you said he played his entire career as a Raptor or at least remains a Raptor for another 8 years. (If he spends his final 1-2 years on a superteam to win a championship, who can blame him?).