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Thread: Starters: Jack and Calderon

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    Default Starters: Jack and Calderon

    So, now that the season is over, we can look at the stats and say: who worked better with the starting unit: Jack or Calderon?

    And the answer is: Calderon by a mile.

    Calderon played 334.8 minutes with Derozan, Turkogulu, Bargnani and Bosh. In that time, the unit was outscored by 8, with an offensive rating of 114 and a defensive rating of 114.

    Jack played 369.7 minutes with the same group of players. In that time the unit was outscored by 99 points, with an offensive rating of 102 and a defensive rating of 115.

    Meaning that basically, the starting unit with Jack was NOT better defensively (slightly worse, actually), but it was much, much, much worse offensively. Which if anyone thinks back to some of our terrible first quarters with Jack leading the offense, should not be too surprising.

    Of course, people like how Jack drives to the hoop, so I doubt that this will convince anyone, but there it is.

    Figures from www.82games.com

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    Raptors Republic Starter TheR3dMenace's Avatar
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    Nice find

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    You've ignored net free throw attempts.

    The Jose lead unit had a net FTA of -26 while the Jack lead unit had a net FTA of +17. So while the defensive rating gives a slight advantage to Jose, the side effect is having people in foul trouble.

    On the offense side of things, I don't think it's any question that Jose runs a better offense than Jack. Jose has better court vision and makes better decisions with the ball (I'm not basing that off numbers, just what I remember). In fact, the Calderon lead unit tended to shoot from close range more often than the Jack lead unit, despite Jack's tendency to drive.

    Anyway, the real problem with comparing these numbers now is because we don't know what would happen if the PGs were regulated to Jameer Nelson duty while Turk handled the rock. This sounds like it will be the case next season.

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    Yes, the Jack unit had an advantage in FTA. But that hardly makes up for being outscored by almost 13 points per 48 minutes. I mean, that's 8 games worth of double digit losses that unit played together.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Guys, you're missing a key stat here, the stat of all stats. What is each PG's win/loss record while starting? That should be your starting point and then branch out to make a decision.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Guys, you're missing a key stat here, the stat of all stats. What is each PG's win/loss record while starting? That should be your starting point and then branch out to make a decision.
    exactly and who has better chemistry.

    which i think it's jack by a landslide.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Chemistry is no doubt important but I am focusing on the stats here because that seems to be the theme... I'm not sure if either of them regresses the chemistry of the team... That was Hedo's role.

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    If by 'chemistry' you mean 'getting consistently outscored by a huge margin', then yes, Jack has better chemistry with the starters. By a landslide.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Guys, you're missing a key stat here, the stat of all stats. What is each PG's win/loss record while starting? That should be your starting point and then branch out to make a decision.
    Sure. The Jose led lineup was 15-16 (0.483), while the Jack led lineup was 9-20 (0.31). So sorry LBF, Jose continues to win by a "landslide". But don't get me wrong, I'd rather have Jack. If we're keeping Jose that's fine, get Turkoglu the fuck outta here. But since we're not moving (can't move?) Turkoglu, then you trade Jose.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Vellassco's Avatar
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    Sure. The Jose led lineup was 15-16 (0.483), while the Jack led lineup was 9-20 (0.31). So sorry LBF, Jose continues to win by a "landslide". But don't get me wrong, I'd rather have Jack. If we're keeping Jose that's fine, get Turkoglu the fuck outta here. But since we're not moving (can't move?) Turkoglu, then you trade Jose.
    You meant if you somehow get Turk outta here, Jose certainly stays but Jack leaves too, right?

    In this case, considering Wright's situation, two wing seat gonna be empty, plus you will be loosing Turks ball handling; that makes another empty seat at pg position (can Banks take this whole season? a bit risky i guess). So, What do you expect from Turk+Jack trades?

    Two defensive minded wing ( 2x 5 mil) + A proven pg back-up (5 mil) + Amir signing (MLE) = Hedo (10 mil? thnks for using him out of his position) + Jack (5 mil)

    Welcome back to 2008-2009 season.

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    Actually, if we can get rid of Hedo, I'd rather keep the Jose+Jack combo and welcome myself back to the "glory" days of the Forderon roster. The difference being that Jackeron doesn't have a guy pouting at the end of the bench.

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    I have no problem with keeping Jack if he is willing to be an actual bench player. Playing 12-16 minutes a night instead of 24. He somehow doesn't seem willing, though. Triano needs to crack down on him and turk.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote malefax wrote: View Post
    I have no problem with keeping Jack if he is willing to be an actual bench player. Playing 12-16 minutes a night instead of 24. He somehow doesn't seem willing, though. Triano needs to crack down on him and turk.
    Why would you want to limit a guy like Jack to 12-16 minutes per game? What is Triano going to be cracking down on with him?

    He's a total waste of money if he's only playing 12 minutes a game.

  14. #14
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    Sure. The Jose led lineup was 15-16 (0.483), while the Jack led lineup was 9-20 (0.31). So sorry LBF, Jose continues to win by a "landslide". But don't get me wrong, I'd rather have Jack. If we're keeping Jose that's fine, get Turkoglu the fuck outta here. But since we're not moving (can't move?) Turkoglu, then you trade Jose.
    Where did you get those numbers?
    Last edited by Apollo; Fri Apr 23rd, 2010 at 11:54 AM.

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    Apollo I was getting the numbers from 82games.com. It's based on the winning percentage of the lineup, not on who started. I used those numbers because it came from the same table mentioned in the original post.

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    Quote malefax wrote: View Post
    I have no problem with keeping Jack if he is willing to be an actual bench player. Playing 12-16 minutes a night instead of 24. He somehow doesn't seem willing, though. Triano needs to crack down on him and turk.
    Jack needs to play a minimum of 20 mpg for him to come close to being effective and for what he's being paid. And if Hedo is on his way out, the two point guard lineup isn't that bad if you put Weems/DeRozan at the SF spot because now you actually have players cutting to the rim that can finish in traffic and potentially draw the foul.

    This is all moot though, Hedo is the new immovable object on the Raptors roster and it doesn't sound like BC even wants to move him. We need to decide which of the two starters will allow Hedo to be at least somewhat similar to what he was in Orlando. I believe that PG is Jack.

  17. #17
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default My second kick at the can

    I just went to Yahoo Sports and looked up Jarret Jack and Jose Calderon. I dumped these numbers into excel and did a quick sort to get an accurate count for each. Here are the correct actuals as reported by Yahoo Sports:

    Jarret Jack's record as a starter this season was 23-20
    Jose Calderon's record as a starter this season was 17-22


    With Bosh out of the line up. Here we see the following:

    Jarret Jack (1-4)
    Jose Calderon (3-4)
    Last edited by Apollo; Fri Apr 23rd, 2010 at 12:04 PM.

  18. #18
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default More info by yours truely

    Jack's starter record vs. .500 or better teams: 9-14
    Calderon's starter record vs .500 or better teams: 6-18


    The trend I am seeing here is that Jack wins games and Calderon, it seems, wins stat sheets.
    Last edited by Apollo; Fri Apr 23rd, 2010 at 12:16 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I just went to Yahoo Sports and looked up Jarret Jack and Jose Calderon. I dumped these numbers into excel and did a quick sort to get an accurate count for each. Here are the correct actuals as reported by Yahoo Sports:

    Jarret Jack's record as a starter this season was 23-20
    Jose Calderon's record as a starter this season was 17-22


    With Bosh out of the line up. Here we see the following:

    Jarret Jack (1-4)
    Jose Calderon (3-4)
    You might want to consider adjusting those numbers for strength of schedule or else issuing a disclaimer to the affect that the numbers are not adjusted for strength of schedule.

    Just a thought

  20. #20
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    In the next post I show records pertaining to strength of schedule. Just look above your post.

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