The 2016 Offseason thread

[KeonClark]

Ross for Noel doesn't make much sense for either side really

Makes sense for Philly imo

[DanH]

Again, I'm not advocating. I'm simply suggesting that this is a possible move for Ujiri IF he believes JV is in treadmill mode in this offense on this team. As you say, if they don't intend to change anything to make room for JV's development, then they should use him as an asset, absolutely. This is simply one option in that scenario.

That's the opposite of what I said. I said that plan B (where plan A is to change stuff to accommodate JV's further development) should be to keep the guy who is one of your best players already.

[magoon]

Ross for Noel doesn't make much sense for either side really

Sure it does.

For Philadelphia, it's getting back return on one of their bigs. They have either four or five young bigs this season (depending on whether or not you consider Ben Simmons to be a big) - Noel, Okafor, Embiid, Saric and Simmons. They simply don't have enough minutes to give all of their young bigs the minutes they need to develop, which is why they've been looking at trading either Noel, Okafor or both.

What Philadelphia doesn't have are wings or guards. Like, Robert Covington is a great bench guard, but he's their best guard prospect. This is a team that saw substantial improvement simply by playing Ish Smith, who barely qualifies as an NBA point guard. They also don't have a lot of shooting.

Ross is on a solid contract for the next few years, possibly a bargain - and if you buy the theory that he's a good player with potential who just hasn't had the right situation in Toronto to really blossom he's a serious bargain.

For Toronto: Ross is a good player and is appreciated for what he brings to the team. He's good. But the simple truth is this: any opportunity of signing a player who is more than a Masai Ujiri reclamation project requires trading away about $8-10m in salary. Ross gets you most of the way there, which is why so many trade proposals involve him: he's the only player with a contract that is the right size and who is widely considered to be expendable if necessary. The opportunity for a JV/Noel center rotation is one that lets us essentially duplicate the JV/Biyombo rotation from last year, except Noel is arguably better, can potentially play some (not many but some) minutes alongside JV, and we'd have his Bird rights. And you're really trading for "cap space to sign a quality starting power forward." So it upgrades two slots instead of one.

[jimmie]

That's the opposite of what I said. I said that plan B (where plan A is to change stuff to accommodate JV's further development) should be to keep the guy who is one of your best players already.

Well then, that's not what I would do. If you're going to half-ass it with a really good player who is more valuable to someone else than he is to you, you should use that to your advantage.

[KeonClark]

Well then, that's not what I would do. If you're going to half-ass it with a really good player who is more valuable to someone else than he is to you, you should use that to your advantage.

He's 24. I really don't think they're "half assing" as much as people think. Maybe all those 4th quarter benchings actually helped his development. And maybe they actually helped the raptors win. You don't just trade him because he's not hakeem. Lowry won't be around forever.

And besides, why would you help another team that he is "more valuable to"

Jv is doing just fine. I know many want to just make him the centerpiece and send derozan packing, but to me it seems the raptors have done an excellent job becoming a quasi contender while also keeping two eyes on the future.

[Barolt]

IF they trade Ross and stuff for Noel, it could signal a second move: JV out, Millsap in (and quite poss. Biz returning). Solves the problem of having to adjust the offense to address JV's growth at that end, for those concerned with Casey giving him more touches. The Noel trade doesn't make much sense otherwise; frees up cap space to do... something.

You shift your 5 position to one of primarily defense/rim protection, PnR on the other end, which is how the O is designed already. Biz and Noel can both do that well, and by all accounts, Poeltl is on his way there, too. You add Millsap at 4, who is a great floor-spacer, rebounder, and defender at PF.

Lowry/CoJo
DD/Powell
DC/MLE?
PM/PP
BB/NN

I would not trade JV for Millsap. You're trading a 24-year old stud on the way up, locked into a team friendly contract for a 30-year old guy on an expiring deal.

[ball4life]

Trading JV Isn't an issue. Trading JV for a guy like Milsap definitely is. And Milsap is a better player than JV right now.


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[big boi]

When was the last time you saw Jones play?

Fair point. Summer league first year... Nah. Since then but probably his good year to be honest. Case in point I didnt know he'd been so injury prone of late. But I would be in to adding him if he was cheap to platoon with our other options. He is far from my first, second or third choice, but failing an opportunity to significantly upgrade the 4, I would be open to a low cost, possibly high risk possibly high reward move while still keeping all of our assets... Like Ross. Thinking that if it didn't work out we could still make a trade when an opportunity presented itself.

[tDotted]

Sure it does.

For Philadelphia, it's getting back return on one of their bigs. They have either four or five young bigs this season (depending on whether or not you consider Ben Simmons to be a big) - Noel, Okafor, Embiid, Saric and Simmons. They simply don't have enough minutes to give all of their young bigs the minutes they need to develop, which is why they've been looking at trading either Noel, Okafor or both.

What Philadelphia doesn't have are wings or guards. Like, Robert Covington is a great bench guard, but he's their best guard prospect. This is a team that saw substantial improvement simply by playing Ish Smith, who barely qualifies as an NBA point guard. They also don't have a lot of shooting.

Ross is on a solid contract for the next few years, possibly a bargain - and if you buy the theory that he's a good player with potential who just hasn't had the right situation in Toronto to really blossom he's a serious bargain.

For Toronto: Ross is a good player and is appreciated for what he brings to the team. He's good. But the simple truth is this: any opportunity of signing a player who is more than a Masai Ujiri reclamation project requires trading away about $8-10m in salary. Ross gets you most of the way there, which is why so many trade proposals involve him: he's the only player with a contract that is the right size and who is widely considered to be expendable if necessary. The opportunity for a JV/Noel center rotation is one that lets us essentially duplicate the JV/Biyombo rotation from last year, except Noel is arguably better, can potentially play some (not many but some) minutes alongside JV, and we'd have his Bird rights. And you're really trading for "cap space to sign a quality starting power forward." So it upgrades two slots instead of one.

So Raptors give up one of their only shooters for someone who'll come off the bench and take away quality development time from the lottery pick. Sixers give up their only experienced defensive-minded big man for a guy who can't handle the ball much for a position/role they don't really need. I don't see it.

Raps need: shooters, PF that can hit a jumper.

Sixers need: ball handlers that can shoot, a quality PG.

[jimmie]

He's 24. I really don't think they're "half assing" as much as people think. Maybe all those 4th quarter benchings actually helped his development. And maybe they actually helped the raptors win. You don't just trade him because he's not hakeem. Lowry won't be around forever.

And besides, why would you help another team that he is "more valuable to"

Jv is doing just fine. I know many want to just make him the centerpiece and send derozan packing, but to me it seems the raptors have done an excellent job becoming a quasi contender while also keeping two eyes on the future.

I don't disagree with you. I think JV is on a perfectly acceptable and fair (to the player and to the team) development curve in Toronto. And I agree that he isn't ready to be made a centerpiece, either defensively or offensively, on any team just yet, but if you're in management and you think he is ready, then you know it won't work while DD and KL are both here.

But, if Ujiri and Casey are resigned to playing the same kind of ball with KL and DD dominating while they're in their prime, JV is automatically the most valuable, most movable asset they have. Ross is fine as trade bait. JV actually GETS you something GOOD in return.

That's all there is to it. To me, Noel is not that much of an add over Bebe and Poeltl, so I struggle to see the difference in adding him strictly as a backup to JV in a vacuum with no other moves. So now you've got 3 young Cs backing up your 4th young C (barring Bebe or Poeltl heading back in a Noel trade), and still no starting PF? (The idea that you can get someone better than PPatt for the cap space created by a Ross trade just doesn't make sense to me)

It was that line of thinking that led to the idea that maybe, just maybe, Ujiri doesn't see JV as the indispensible player most of the forum sees him as, and instead sees him as an asset.

[3inthekeon]

Never been close to as big a JV fan as most of this board has. Been in arguments when pointing out his warts.

That said, the JV I saw the last couple of months was arguably the best player on our team - including Lowry.

If the offence isn't going to get JV enough touches and involvement, you don't trade JV, you alter the fucking offence to run more plays for JV..

And I'm going to go out on a limb here and believe that Casey also saw what I saw, and more.

[slaw]

Never been close to as big a JV fan as most of this board has. Been in arguments when pointing out his warts.

That said, the JV I saw the last couple of months was arguably the best player on our team - including Lowry.

If the offence isn't going to get JV enough touches and involvement, you don't trade JV, you alter the fucking offence to run more plays for JV..

And I'm going to go out on a limb here and believe that Casey also saw what I saw, and more.

People talk about this like they are trying to send a spaceship to Alpha Centauri. You don't have to alter the offense at all. Just utilize him a little bit more in screen and roll, dump him the ball in the post a few more times a game and have the guards utilize him as a safety valve more on drives to the lane. That's it. They already do all of that stuff - they just don't do it enough. Ticking up JV's USG% 3-4 points is not so hard that the obvious alternative is trading him.

The reason it hasn't happened is because the team has had a lot of success doing what it's been doing (and if it ain't broke don't fixt it) but the playoffs clearly showed how much more dangerous they are with a more involved JV. He's slowly become more involved each year, it will never be enough for some, but you'll see him get more involved again this year.

[3inthekeon]

People talk about this like they are trying to send a spaceship to Alpha Centauri. You don't have to alter the offense at all. Just utilize him a little bit more in screen and roll, dump him the ball in the post a few more times a game and have the guards utilize him as a safety valve more on drives to the lane. That's it. They already do all of that stuff - they just don't do it enough. Ticking up JV's USG% 3-4 points is not so hard that the obvious alternative is trading him.

The reason it hasn't happened is because the team has had a lot of success doing what it's been doing (and if it ain't broke don't fixt it) but the playoffs clearly showed how much more dangerous they are with a more involved JV. He's slowly become more involved each year, it will never be enough for some, but you'll see him get more involved again this year.

"Alter" may not be what you think it is. It means a small, but significant change, i. e. not re-writing the playbook.

They could also run a few more plays for him out of timeouts and especially ends of quarters.

But yeah, as you said, it will be stuff we already do in almost all cases, just more of it.

[DogeLover1234]

Saw a video today of Ross working out with Norm and Delon. Nice to know that the younger guys hangiut in the offseason.

[Scraptor]

Never been close to as big a JV fan as most of this board has. Been in arguments when pointing out his warts.

That said, the JV I saw the last couple of months was arguably the best player on our team - including Lowry.

If the offence isn't going to get JV enough touches and involvement, you don't trade JV, you alter the fucking offence to run more plays for JV..

And I'm going to go out on a limb here and believe that Casey also saw what I saw, and more.

People talk about this like they are trying to send a spaceship to Alpha Centauri. You don't have to alter the offense at all. Just utilize him a little bit more in screen and roll, dump him the ball in the post a few more times a game and have the guards utilize him as a safety valve more on drives to the lane. That's it. They already do all of that stuff - they just don't do it enough. Ticking up JV's USG% 3-4 points is not so hard that the obvious alternative is trading him.

The reason it hasn't happened is because the team has had a lot of success doing what it's been doing (and if it ain't broke don't fixt it) but the playoffs clearly showed how much more dangerous they are with a more involved JV. He's slowly become more involved each year, it will never be enough for some, but you'll see him get more involved again this year.

From reddit, in response to a quote by Casey about getting Jonas more involved:

They say this every year.

2013:

Casey liked what he saw from Valanciunas, the Vegas summer league MVP, and intends to make the big Lithuanian far more of a factor where the offence is concerned. “That’s part of the offence that will change quite a bit because he has developed into the type of player that we can go to on a consistent basis far more than we did last year,” Casey said of Valanciunas.

2014:

Teammates say Valanciunas will have a bigger role in the offence. “We have to start games off (feeding Valanciunas in the post), we need him, we’re going to put some pressure on him to score the ball for us,” Kyle Lowry said. “We can’t just do all guard-oriented types of things. We have to make sure he’s more involved and have to put a little pressure on him to score the ball.”

2015:

Casey: "We plan to use him, especially offensively, down the stretch. Father Time is a great teacher and developer [in] those kinds of situations."

Valanciunas was 11th on the team in FGA in the 4th quarter in 2015-16.
Until you change the coach or the backcourt that dominates the ball, Valanciunas is never going to get a bigger role on this team.