Da Finals - Who Ya Got ?

[DanH]

The thing about LeBron is he's led more incomplete teams filled with journeymen and no real help to the finals than anyone else. Of course he would struggle to actually win once he's there. He's had no real help. Even the high paid help he has now is a pair of offence-only borderline stars who couldn't defend the pylons they so often resemble. And he didn't even have that last year or when he dragged that horrendous Cavs team to the finals before he went to MIA.

When he had a couple decent teammates he went to 4 straight finals and won 2 of them. The Cavs teams he dragged to the finals have been pretty bad outside of James himself.

[OldSkoolCool]

Of course it isn't a fact, it was a hypothetical that I can't spell out any more clearly than the original comment.

Not sure why explanations are needed, but here's another one:

One more game to go (CHI @ NOP), but the East will finish w/ its 2nd best record vs. the West in the last 17 years. pic.twitter.com/KBdPoi9rsC

— John Schuhmann (@johnschuhmann) April 10, 2016

This stats needs to be filtered to only include playoff teams vs playoff teams for it to be more relevant to the Lebron in the east discussion

[KeonClark]

Also worth noting: in an alternate universe where lebron and steph switch teams, lebron and the warriors are on their way to making quick work of steph and the cavs for the 2nd straight year.

Lebron may be 2-5 soon, but 2 nba finals mvps. Steph is on his way to 2 straight years of being outplayed on his own team by draymond green and andre iguodala

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I can't believe I'm defending lebron, but it's truly ridiculous hes getting picked apart for his finals record. The guy can consistently drag a mediocre roster to 55 win and a spot in the finals. Is he Michael? No probably not, but nobody is. He's a one of a handful of the greatest players of all time. Just because him and his gang of bums kyrie kev and jr cant beat a 73 win all time team doesn't make lebron as an individual any less special. Finding inane ways to downgrade him is pretty funny

Part of my issue with LBJ is that he's so good in all aspects of the game, that his well-roundedness hurts him and his teams. What I mean is that without a defined role and approach, it's hard to build a team around him. One minute he's the PG. One minute he's the mid-range shooter. One minute he's the point-forward. One minute he's working in the post. Is he a facilitator for others, or a hero scorer?

I'm not sure how much of that is on him, versus on his coach (or even GM). Kobe was a streaky shooter who needed a dominant low-post big to succeed (ie: Shaq & Pau). Shaq needed shooters surrounding him. I have no idea how to even classify LBJ. Personally, I'd use his size/strength advantage down low more regularly, just like MJ used to post-up players and use his turnaround jumpers to murder them.

If LBJ focused on playing a specific position/role/style, it would be much easier to build a team around him. The success the super-team in Miami enjoyed was partially because the skill level of Wade and Bosh forced LBJ to play a specific role more consistently. He was the point-forward, he had a dribble-drive and post-up option, along with a couple outside shooters. They found a recipe for success. He's never found such a recipe in Cleveland.

[white men can't jump]

Part of my issue with LBJ is that he's so good in all aspects of the game, that his well-roundedness hurts him and his teams. What I mean is that without a defined role and approach, it's hard to build a team around him. One minute he's the PG. One minute he's the mid-range shooter. One minute he's the point-forward. One minute he's working in the post. Is he a facilitator for others, or a hero scorer?

I'm not sure how much of that is on him, versus on his coach (or even GM). Kobe was a streaky shooter who needed a dominant low-post big to succeed (ie: Shaq & Pau). Shaq needed shooters surrounding him. I have no idea how to even classify LBJ. Personally, I'd use his size/strength advantage down low more regularly, just like MJ used to post-up players and use his turnaround jumpers to murder them.

If LBJ focused on playing a specific position/role/style, it would be much easier to build a team around him. The success the super-team in Miami enjoyed was partially because the skill level of Wade and Bosh forced LBJ to play a specific role more consistently. He was the point-forward, he had a dribble-drive and post-up option, along with a couple outside shooters. They found a recipe for success. He's never found such a recipe in Cleveland.

In theory his well rounded game makes it stupidly easy to build around him. That's why he can take subpar teams to the Finals.

In Miami he could focus on a more specific role because there was talent and/or consistency at other spots. He didn't have to worry about playing 2-3 roles on every possession on each side of the court.

So really the problem is not coaching or LeBron, it's poor management. They can't build a team around arguably the easiest player to build around of all time.

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[KHD]

In theory his well rounded game makes it stupidly easy to build around him. That's why he can take subpar teams to the Finals.

In Miami he could focus on a more specific role because there was talent and/or consistency at other spots. He didn't have to worry about playing 2-3 roles on every possession on each side of the court.

So really the problem is not coaching or LeBron, it's poor management. They can't build a team around arguably the easiest player to build around of all time.

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that's because "they" is actually Lebron himself calling the shots.

[white men can't jump]

that's because "they" is actually Lebron himself calling the shots.

I don't think that's as true as a lot of people do. I think Cleveland has terrible ownership/management. They have no brains and no guts. There's no way Riley/Arison let themselves be held hostage to something like signing Tristan Thompson to a contract about 2-3 times his worth. That's not on LeBron.

[JimiCliff]

This terrible, terrible finals has once again made it very clear that conferences need to be gone

[tDotted]

LeBron getting to 6 finals and only winning 2 is indicative of how easy his paths have been right? Since he can breeze through the East with 'subpar' supporting casts.

[tDotted]

Part of my issue with LBJ is that he's so good in all aspects of the game, that his well-roundedness hurts him and his teams. What I mean is that without a defined role and approach, it's hard to build a team around him. One minute he's the PG. One minute he's the mid-range shooter. One minute he's the point-forward. One minute he's working in the post. Is he a facilitator for others, or a hero scorer?

I'm not sure how much of that is on him, versus on his coach (or even GM). Kobe was a streaky shooter who needed a dominant low-post big to succeed (ie: Shaq & Pau). Shaq needed shooters surrounding him. I have no idea how to even classify LBJ. Personally, I'd use his size/strength advantage down low more regularly, just like MJ used to post-up players and use his turnaround jumpers to murder them.

If LBJ focused on playing a specific position/role/style, it would be much easier to build a team around him. The success the super-team in Miami enjoyed was partially because the skill level of Wade and Bosh forced LBJ to play a specific role more consistently. He was the point-forward, he had a dribble-drive and post-up option, along with a couple outside shooters. They found a recipe for success. He's never found such a recipe in Cleveland.

I agree with this partially. It's not that it's difficult to figure what he needs around him. The problem is finding who can do it consistently enough. LBJ basically needs lights out shooters to keep his offenses running (2007 being the outlier). People love to talk trash about the Cavs teams he played with but the 2009 Cavs team was actually his best team statistically because of the shooting he had. His supporting cast shot 41% from 3 collectively that year en route to 66 wins. Swept two series' in a row before losing in 6 to Orlando who was the 2nd best team in the league at defending the 3 point line (Basically how you stop a LeBron led team. Interior presence plus good closeouts).

Unfortunately for him, the majority of shooters in this league are role players.. meaning it's not very difficult to shut them out of the game. If not for his shooters going absolutely bananas in the Finals of 2012 (47% from 3!) and 2013 (48%!), he likely only has 1 ring at most.

*And to the scenarios of swapping LBJ and Kobe and predicting wins: you can't do it. The two types of teams that they command(ed) are so different, they wouldn't be nearly as good without their respective captain. Kobe needed a low post guy to balance with his jumpshooting game while James needs guys out on the perimeter to balance his driving/post up game.

[Mapko]

The thing about LeBron is he's led more incomplete teams filled with journeymen and no real help to the finals than anyone else. Of course he would struggle to actually win once he's there. He's had no real help. Even the high paid help he has now is a pair of offence-only borderline stars who couldn't defend the pylons they so often resemble. And he didn't even have that last year or when he dragged that horrendous Cavs team to the finals before he went to MIA.

When he had a couple decent teammates he went to 4 straight finals and won 2 of them. The Cavs teams he dragged to the finals have been pretty bad outside of James himself.

Really?
Love & Irving are pretty much accepted to be top 10 (top 20 at the worst) players in NBA; So were Wade (even 3 yrs ago) & def Bosh.
How many top 20 players does Lebron need to win? 4? 5?
Dallas won with over the hill Dirk, way past his prime Kid (at the most 1 top 20 player);
SA with old Duncan * Manu, still very young KL & Parker (not sure old or young). Any guy there in top 20? Maybe 1.
Don't even get me going with MJ. Was Pip that good (next to MJ)? 2 yrs MJ played baseball Bulls with Pip did not do much. After MJ retired Pip did not do shit with Portland, Hou...He did not age that much in 1 year.
As for "Pretty bad Cavs teams -who is responsible? Coach/GM James?
I agree, James is a very good player, perhaps the best over last 15 years, but GOAT? Not even close.

[Mapko]

I don't think that's as true as a lot of people do. I think Cleveland has terrible ownership/management. They have no brains and no guts. There's no way Riley/Arison let themselves be held hostage to something like signing Tristan Thompson to a contract about 2-3 times his worth. That's not on LeBron.

And that is why James is gone from Miami (not this BS about wanting to be home).
Does not like team -trade for Love or I don't come;
Does not like the coach -get me Lou or I'm gone.
What is this summer/year? Get me CP3 & Blake for Love & Irving or I'm gone?
Don't be surprised.
I'll be surprised if he is not already working (or at least thinking) on plan B this summer -how to merge into another super team.

[S.R.]

You know what I'm just not going to get into it. Carry on.

Ha ha, go ahead, speak your mind!

A good counter-point to the "context" that six straight finals appearances has happened in the East and would not have happened in the West is that while the conference may be weaker Lebron has still dragged some pretty flimsy rosters through four rounds of basketball. In the East, that guy + almost any roster gets to the finals. Who else can you say that about?

But the West is insane, and it goes beyond whatever stats. One year the Spurs can win a title and the next they lose in the first round and no one's really surprised. Could you ever imagine the Heatles losing a first round series in the East? Would never happen.

It's always a bit of a funny thing tying team success to a player's legacy. At some point you're running into variables beyond his control.

[Billy103]

The west has more contenders than the east I mean GSW OKC SA healthy LAC and Memphis compared to the east we have Cleveland and no one in the east is going to beat them anytime soon. James going 2 for 5 just proves how good the west really has been for a while.

[JimiCliff]

Really?
Love & Irving are pretty much accepted to be top 10 (top 20 at the worst) players in NBA; So were Wade (even 3 yrs ago) & def Bosh.
How many top 20 players does Lebron need to win? 4? 5?
Dallas won with over the hill Dirk, way past his prime Kid (at the most 1 top 20 player);
SA with old Duncan * Manu, still very young KL & Parker (not sure old or young). Any guy there in top 20? Maybe 1.
Don't even get me going with MJ. Was Pip that good (next to MJ)? 2 yrs MJ played baseball Bulls with Pip did not do much. After MJ retired Pip did not do shit with Portland, Hou...He did not age that much in 1 year.
As for "Pretty bad Cavs teams -who is responsible? Coach/GM James?
I agree, James is a very good player, perhaps the best over last 15 years, but GOAT? Not even close.

No way Love and Irving are top 20, by any metric - especially if defence is a meaningful part of the equation.

What we're really seeing is that if your best players don't play both sides of the ball well, then you're in deep trouble, and you won't be able to compete as an elite team.