The Official 2016 Raptors Summer League Discussion

[Axel]

Hes not irreplaceable. And yes, he has his flaws but I wouldn't use his defence as a first point of criticism. Hypothetically, bebe can somehow turn a corner and demonstrate a respectable amount of rim protection with a great deal more to offer offensively. And there are other backup players like this that dont come with bizs' contract or offensive limitations. I think his attitude though, can't be understated and is difficult to replace. He had a huge impact on our team and a big reason why we finally broke through. There are a lot of guys who have been gifted and groomed their whole lives. for example, I can see Ross dating a cougar but not fighting one.

The original post that started this conversation said that the defence would significantly get worse without Biyombo and that it was a cause for concern for the team's success. That led to the comment that Biyombo is overrated around here. All I have done is try to demonstrate how, in the grand scheme of our season, Biyombo was a minor role and that he's leaving is not a significant cause for concern. Why some people have skewed that into a indictment of Biyombo escapes me but that is all this conversation was about.

[3inthekeon]

Doh! Missed your period

well, i wouldn't say that. we basically had the best backup center in basketball

I read it as:

well, i wouldn't say that we basically had the best backup center in basketball

[DanH]

Hey guys, remember last offseason when Lou leaving meant the bench would struggle to score and then we had one of the best benches in the entire league? Good times.

Biz was a very good defender. Lou was a very good scorer. We did not miss Lou much. We won't miss Biz much. Neither player was anywhere near as important to the team's success as they were made out to be in the summer they left.

[ogi]

Hey guys, remember last offseason when Lou leaving meant the bench would struggle to score and then we had one of the best benches in the entire league? Good times.

Biz was a very good defender. Lou was a very good scorer. We did not miss Lou much. We won't miss Biz much. Neither player was anywhere near as important to the team's success as they were made out to be in the summer they left.

I also remember a lot of people being happy that Lou wasn't coming back cuz the chuckfest was driving everyone crazy.

[Deino]

Hey guys, remember last offseason when Lou leaving meant the bench would struggle to score and then we had one of the best benches in the entire league? Good times.

Biz was a very good defender. Lou was a very good scorer. We did not miss Lou much. We won't miss Biz much. Neither player was anywhere near as important to the team's success as they were made out to be in the summer they left.

I see what you're saying,but there's big difference between the two,yes Lou could score but he was a liability on defense with questionable style of play that failed to contribute(on either side of the floor) in the playoffs for the Raptors where Raps didn't win a game with him in playoffs,where Biz not only contributed in making a big culture change(that tough -refuse to get punked- mindset/attitude) on the floor as well in the locker room that became viral,but also he was a major reason(defensively and motivational) we won games (specially in the playoffs according to Derosan among others) and go deep in the playoffs,now if that was not significant contribution for the team i'am not sure what is?.
Can't claim the team will be better or worse since there are many untested players on this roster,only time will tell,but I also cannot deny anyone the credit he deserves for whatever he did for the team(even if he left).

[lewro]

The original post that started this conversation said that the defence would significantly get worse without Biyombo and that it was a cause for concern for the team's success. That led to the comment that Biyombo is overrated around here. All I have done is try to demonstrate how, in the grand scheme of our season, Biyombo was a minor role and that he's leaving is not a significant cause for concern. Why some people have skewed that into a indictment of Biyombo escapes me but that is all this conversation was about.

I didn't take it as an indictment. I think you made valid points
Bizs' attitude is part of our defence.
Dan, can't compare Lou to biz. Wasn't worried about losing Lou. You do need guys with Lowry and biz attitude to win championships. I think we are fine reg season but playoffs we will miss him. Not that we are winning a chip anyway.

[DanH]

Re: Lou being a liability defensively - yep! And Biz was a liability offensively. He and Lou are basically mirror images of each other.

Team success is basically the only argument for Biz being more important than Lou was. Lou's on-off splits were actually pretty good, and he was not at all the reason the team lost in the playoffs. The team didn't really need to move on from Lou or Amir - they just needed cap space to be able to add higher tier talent like Carroll.

You can make team culture arguments all you like, but with that reasoning by all accounts you should be equally concerned with losing Scola. And the reality is this team goes as Lowry goes - for all his shooting struggles this year, he was not a shell of his former self like in the 2015 playoffs, and that was the difference.

[3inthekeon]

Among all NBA players who logged 1000 NBA minutes, Biz was 15th in DRPM and 22nd DBPM so those metrics would suggest that Biz may not be as overrated a defender as is being suggested.

That said, both metrics have JV as the better overall player.

And yeah, as Dan pointed out we really didn't miss Lou this year. And both metrics had Lou as a better overall player last year than Biz was this year.

Edit: And Biz wasn't much better defensively this year than he was the year before in Charlotte. Charlotte's DRTG was 9th with Biz. They let Biz walk and their defense actually improved to 8th.

[lewro]

I normally tend to agree with you Dan but comparing scola and Lou to biz is way off. This game is still played by humans so psychology is huge. The biz block on lebron is one of the few plays that made me jump out of my seat since day one of the franchise. That's the greatest player of our generation and one of the goats. Biz put him on his ass and even if history records it as a foul it was clean imo and sent a message regardless. we missed that toughness the past few playoffs. We were a joke to LeBron until biz stepped up. We were a joke to Paul pierce (x2) and kg before that. We were getting punked. Scola and Lou don't bring that.

[Deino]

Since that team success is the way to go than we can agree that Biz's presence was more important than Lou's way more.
Cultural change with Biz came in with a guy that now holds the record for most rebounds in a game for raps,and a terrific rim protector that set the example (defensively)for his teammates,not a 35 year old that everybody was urging Casey to take him out of games for well known reasons.
Also spoke of how Biz affected the game in many ways not only numbers wise however some people insist on resorting to metrics as the only way to determine level of efficiency.
And if only Lowry's success is team succsess then if he struggled (we all know he and Derosan did) then how did Raps make it to game 6 in ECF ? the fact is others stepped up,one game it was Derosan,then Powell,another game it was JV(until he got injured),
then Biz played big and others too.

[DanH]

For the record, no we don't agree that Biz's impact was way more than Lou's. The team had more success because DD played better (far better), because Lowry was healthier (not healthy, but healthier), and JV got better. That and a better defensive scheme. Contributions from Biz, Scola, and their ilk are far down the list of reasons for team success.

Again, you are all just confirming the stance - Biz is super important in your perception because he made a couple big plays and brought a toughness to the team. You are free to continue valuing him as such. Just don't be shocked when the team is still tough, and still very good, without him.

[Deino]

I am speaking of facts of last year that were obvious(to me at least),but i am not the one here presuming defense(or toughness) will be better next season,i hope it will be,like I said only time will tell, and i'll keep an eye on it.

[lewro]

Thanks for permitting us to have our own opinion. Are you also permitting the media and nba professionals that raved about the guy and offered him a huge contract to value him as well? I respect your opinion Dan but his value was determined by professionals and neither of us are.
We were a good team before biz and will continue to be a good team without him. However, I wouldn't at all be surprised if we lost in the first rd bc we lacked some of the things biz brought to the team when we finally made it past the first rd since more than a decade ago. Coincidence? While I value our other additions (cojo, etc), I think biz was the biggest addition that made the difference. Sully will contribute but he ain't gonna fill that void.

[MACK11]

Thanks for permitting us to have our own opinion. Are you also permitting the media and nba professionals that raved about the guy and offered him a huge contract to value him as well? I respect your opinion Dan but his value was determined by professionals and neither of us are.
We were a good team before biz and will continue to be a good team without him. However, I wouldn't at all be surprised if we lost in the first rd bc we lacked some of the things biz brought to the team when we finally made it past the first rd since more than a decade ago. Coincidence? While I value our other additions (cojo, etc), I think biz was the biggest addition that made the difference. Sully will contribute but he ain't gonna fill that void.

So you think Bismack Biyombo is the difference between losing in the 1st round or going 2nd round/ECF ?

[Miekenstien]

Thanks for permitting us to have our own opinion. Are you also permitting the media and nba professionals that raved about the guy and offered him a huge contract to value him as well? I respect your opinion Dan but his value was determined by professionals and neither of us are.
We were a good team before biz and will continue to be a good team without him. However, I wouldn't at all be surprised if we lost in the first rd bc we lacked some of the things biz brought to the team when we finally made it past the first rd since more than a decade ago. Coincidence? While I value our other additions (cojo, etc), I think biz was the biggest addition that made the difference. Sully will contribute but he ain't gonna fill that void.

i would be surprised if we lose in the first round and it is because we didn't have biz. biz had an impact but i would be surprised if in one or two years the magic still think that was 18 000 000 per year well spent. biz excelled because we expected nothing and run a play style where the center, no matter how skilled, has only 2 jobs, rebound and challenge at the rim. those are the only two things that biz excels at. asking anything more of him would have been a detriment to him and the team.