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Thread: Bargnani is the 5th Most Skilled 7 Footer?

  1. #21
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    Quote TIm W. wrote: View Post
    The point is not that Bargnani isn't a good 3 point shooter. He's fine from beyond the arc. The point is that it is supposed to be the biggest part of his game, and it IS the best part of his game, and he's simply adequate at it. No more.

    And if the vast majority of his threes are open looks (which I agree with) why doesn't he shoot a better percentage from there? There are 60 guys in the league that shot a better percentage from there than Bargnani. SIXTY! And that's the best part of his game?

    He's a below average rebounder, defender, inside scorer and shot creator. And his biggest strength is simply adequate. Why exactly do some people think he's so skilled?
    Because you have to take height into account when you're talking about skill. Saying that a guy has a great handle is impressive if he's 6'10. If he's 6'0, great doesn't cut it. 6'0 guys have to have sick, ridiculous handles, or they can't play in the NBA. That's just how it is.

    So yeah, Bargnani is just okay as a 3 point gunner, if you're looking at the entire NBA... 95% of which is shorter than him. But that's not the point. The point is, he is a guy who defends the centre position who is a good 3 point shooter.

    I don't get why this is confusing to people. You are aware why Rashard Lewis is paid like he is, right? There is a huge demand for stretch bigs in the NBA, because it is so useful to be able to draw 4 defenders out to the perimeter. And 3 point shooting, even 'okay' 3-point shooting like Bargs, is actually an incredibly difficult skill to master. There are lots of really great players who never really developed it that well (see Jordan, Michael, and Bryant, Kobe). Being 60th best in the NBA is actually damn impressive. And yeah, when you're 7'0" tall, it's a huge deal.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    There is something wrong with shooting 37% when he hoists by far the most threes on the team with 325, next closest is Turk with 289 and then Jack with 199. He's 5th on the team in 3pt percentage and Jack is 1st at 41%. Three-point shooting is HUGE (biggest?) part of his game and he's mediocre at it, that is not cool.

    Saying 37% is great for a C wouldn't be incorrect if the C in question was a traditional C who rebounded, played defense and did, you know, shit other centers do. But since he doesn't do that, he better make it up by at least shooting 45% from three, otherwise it's not worth it.
    ok, now let's rationalize here the dude's 24 he's been decent overall, and there's alot of times where he's been good and he's been awful.

    it's not like he's 30 on the downside of his career and just hasn't been able to get anything consistent throughout his long career.(sounds a bit like a certain shooting forward)

    i'm still willing to give him a year or two to do what he should be consistently enough and if that doesn't happen. i'll agree with you.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    37% on threes is the same as 50% on twos.

    The problem is that when a 7 footer is only shooting 50% and doesn't get to the foul line his efficiency on offense is mediocre at best.

    Bargnani's numbers were ----------TS% .552 and eFG% was .532 ORB% .046
    Bosh's numbers were--------------- TS% .592 and eFG% was .522 ORB% .099
    Johnson's numbers were----------- TS% .639 and eFG% was .623 ORB% .129
    D. Howard's numbers were---------TS% .630 and eFG% was .612 ORB% .120

    So when you look at the efficiency numbers on offense of the Raptors three big men in the rotation last year Johnson's numbers were the only one of the three whose numbers were comparable to D. Howard.

    TS%
    ---------
    True Shooting Percentage; the formula is PTS / (2 * (FGA + 0.44 * FTA)). True shooting percentage is a measure of shooting efficiency that takes into account field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws.


    EFG%
    ---------
    Effective Field Goal Percentage; the formula is (FG + 0.5 * 3P) / FGA. This statistic adjusts for the fact that a 3-point field goal is worth one more point than a 2-point field goal. For example, suppose Player A goes 4 for 10 with 2 threes, while Player B goes 5 for 10 with 0 threes. Each player would have 10 points from field goals, and thus would have the same effective field goal percentage (50%).

    ORB%
    ------------
    Offensive Rebound Percentage (available since the 1970-71 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * (ORB * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm ORB + Opp DRB)). Offensive rebound percentage is an estimate of the percentage of available offensive rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Sat Apr 24th, 2010 at 12:35 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote malefax wrote: View Post
    Because you have to take height into account when you're talking about skill. Saying that a guy has a great handle is impressive if he's 6'10. If he's 6'0, great doesn't cut it. 6'0 guys have to have sick, ridiculous handles, or they can't play in the NBA. That's just how it is.

    So yeah, Bargnani is just okay as a 3 point gunner, if you're looking at the entire NBA... 95% of which is shorter than him. But that's not the point. The point is, he is a guy who defends the centre position who is a good 3 point shooter.

    I don't get why this is confusing to people. You are aware why Rashard Lewis is paid like he is, right? There is a huge demand for stretch bigs in the NBA, because it is so useful to be able to draw 4 defenders out to the perimeter. And 3 point shooting, even 'okay' 3-point shooting like Bargs, is actually an incredibly difficult skill to master. There are lots of really great players who never really developed it that well (see Jordan, Michael, and Bryant, Kobe). Being 60th best in the NBA is actually damn impressive. And yeah, when you're 7'0" tall, it's a huge deal.
    You have to take height into account when you're talking about skills like dribbling. Not shooting. How does the height of a person matter when talking about how well they shoot? The fact that a player has concentrated on shooting the three, despite being big enough to play inside doesn't impress me. ANYONE who practices shooting outside will eventually become half decent at it. There have been lots of big men who shot well from outside, but the fact of the matter is that most big men don't concentrate on that part of their game because they focus on playing inside. Bargnani ignored other parts of his game in order to become a better three point shooter. Great. How does that make him extra skilled?

    And Rashard Lewis is VASTLY overpaid, but he's still far, far more skilled on both ends of the court than Bargnani is.

    I've played with plenty of big guys who loved to shoot the three, but they were useless as big men because they didn't like to play inside.

    Bargnani has one skill that is not below average. Shooting. I don't consider a guy who has one good skill, and a bunch of below average one's all that skilled. I call him one-dimensional.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote TIm W. wrote: View Post
    Bargnani has one skill that is not below average. Shooting. I don't consider a guy who has one good skill, and a bunch of below average one's all that skilled. I call him one-dimensional.
    For a 7 footer Bargnani is terribly inefficient on the offense end and the numbers support the reality.

    People have come to the believe in one of the biggest fallacies in basketball as if it is a truism; i.e., if a person can make a three point shot relatively effectively he is a good shooter; i.e. he can shoot and score efficiently.

    Bargnani last season averaged 1.2 points per field goal attempt. This is just horribly inefficient for a 7 footer. The Raptors as a team averaged 1.29 points per field goal attempt.

    Bosh averaged 1.45 points per field goal attempt
    Johnson averaged 1.55 points per fga
    D. Howard averaged 1.80 points per fga

    Anyone in the NBA can chuck up shots.

    What makes a good shooter is one who averages the most points per shot taken.

    If what Johnson does is so easy and requires no shooting skill than how come other players avoid it and instead chuck up shots from all over the court and wind up being terribly inefficient in their shooting?

    Its not easy to do what he does. Johnson is a very good shooter. Bargnani is below average. The facts in this case don't lie.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Sat Apr 24th, 2010 at 04:02 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    37% on threes is the same as 50% on twos.

    The problem is that when a 7 footer is only shooting 50% and doesn't get to the foul line his efficiency on offense is mediocre at best.

    Bargnani's numbers were ----------TS% .552 and eFG% was .532 ORB% .046
    Bosh's numbers were--------------- TS% .592 and eFG% was .522 ORB% .099
    Johnson's numbers were----------- TS% .639 and eFG% was .623 ORB% .129
    D. Howard's numbers were---------TS% .630 and eFG% was .612 ORB% .120

    So when you look at the efficiency numbers on offense of the Raptors three big men in the rotation last year Johnson's numbers were the only one of the three whose numbers were comparable to D. Howard.



    http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html
    As I said earlier in this thread only, 29% of Bargnani's offense comes on the perimeter, the rest comes from drives to the basket, mid range and post plays. Bargnani can give a defense fits and creates match up problems. You cannot quantify that with stats.

    I don't think its fair to toss Johnson is there. He was a two bit player in the pecking order last year. He's not able to create for himself and he doesn't give opposing defenses really any match up issues. Johnson got easy baskets. He didn't take a lot of shots, he was an after thought who wasn't placed in tough situations and told to score. Dwight Howard is the center of the Magic's offense and he gets doubles. Johnson is nowhere close to Dwight Howard and I don't need a stat line to tell me that.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Rookie Trapaholic's Avatar
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    I, too, raised an eyebrow at the "great passer" comment...

  8. #28
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    As I said earlier in this thread only, 29% of Bargnani's offense comes on the perimeter, the rest comes from drives to the basket, mid range and post plays.
    Actually, 29% of his shots come from beyond the arc. According to 82games, 74% of Bargnani's shots come from the perimeter. And I'd say a mid range jump shot IS from the perimeter, especially when the majority of them are from beyond 15 feet.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I don't think its fair to toss Johnson is there. He was a two bit player in the pecking order last year. He's not able to create for himself and he doesn't give opposing defenses really any match up issues.
    The problem with Bargnani is that HE doesn't create much for himself either. In fact, a higher percentage of Bargnani's baskets are assisted than Johnson's. Johnson doesn't create matchup problems, but he does create problems for the other team's defense because he's so active, something Bargnani is most definitely not. Johnson constantly cuts and goes after rebounds, which makes him more valuable than Bargnani.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    As I said earlier in this thread only, 29% of Bargnani's offense comes on the perimeter, the rest comes from drives to the basket, mid range and post plays. Bargnani can give a defense fits and creates match up problems. You cannot quantify that with stats.

    I don't think its fair to toss Johnson is there. He was a two bit player in the pecking order last year. He's not able to create for himself and he doesn't give opposing defenses really any match up issues. Johnson got easy baskets. He didn't take a lot of shots, he was an after thought who wasn't placed in tough situations and told to score. Dwight Howard is the center of the Magic's offense and he gets doubles. Johnson is nowhere close to Dwight Howard and I don't need a stat line to tell me that.
    When it comes to offense Johnson is about as efficient as Howard.

    Do you think that it is so easy to get open to be in position to be able to finish at a consistently high rate at the rim?

    With all due respect if you do, you do not understand this facet of basketball.

    If it was so easy then why doesn't everyone do it since Johnson's success rate is so high? 95% of the players don't do it, Bargnani included because it takes a skill to do it and guys like Bargnani don't have that skill.

    As far as creating his own shot. Johnson had a lower percentage of assisted field goals than Bargnani.

    You say a put back is not creating your own shot? Then you have a hole in your screen door.

    Johnson is a more efficient and effective player than Bargnani on offense and a better shooter. Shooting is not just chucking the ball up from any where on the court. Shooting is putting the ball in the basket at a high rate of shots attempted and involves getting open, put backs, etc.

    As far as Johnson being a two bit player. You are entitled to your opinion on that one.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Sun Apr 25th, 2010 at 02:44 PM.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Rookie CB4's Avatar
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    Could he also be the most useless skilled 7 footer in the league? I mean he does what guards are supposed to do but nothing of what a center is supposed to do. He isn't an inside presence and doesn't get enough boards... and he's 7 feet tall!

  11. #31
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    I don't think that is bargnani who decide to play from perimeter: there's 2 possibilities, triano ask him to play there (and that's a problem) or triano dont punish him if he play from perimeter if triano asks to play in the paint (and that's another problem). a big man on perimeter opens up space for bosh, i think it's a team tactic... because bargnani is a good post player in offense.

  12. #32
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Do you think that it is so easy to get open to be in position to be able to finish at a consistently high rate at the rim?

    With all due respect if you do, you do not understand this facet of basketball.

    If it was so easy then why doesn't everyone do it since Johnson's success rate is so high? 95% of the players don't do it, Bargnani included because it takes a skill to do it and guys like Bargnani don't have that skill.
    So you seriously think that teams focus attention planning to keep the ball out of Amir Johnson's hands?

    For real, ask yourself this. When opponents sit down and they're watching film and looking over assignments who do you think gets attention, #1 overall draft pick Andrea Bargnani or reserve player Amir Johnson?
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Apr 26th, 2010 at 06:27 AM.

  13. #33
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    Quote skiele wrote: View Post
    I don't think that is bargnani who decide to play from perimeter: there's 2 possibilities, triano ask him to play there (and that's a problem) or triano dont punish him if he play from perimeter if triano asks to play in the paint (and that's another problem). a big man on perimeter opens up space for bosh, i think it's a team tactic... because bargnani is a good post player in offense.
    So either way, it's not Bargnani's fault, right? And everything I've read abut the coaches trying to get Bargnani to play more inside is nonsense?

    And no, Bargnani is not a good post player. He doesn't hold position well, doesn't seal his man, doesn't have good hands, doesn't draw contact and doesn't have a very good repertoire down there, all of which are necessary to be a good defender. Plus, he's a black hole in the post.

    66% of his inside shots are assisted, which is virtually the same as his rookie season, and virtually the same as Amir Johnson, who makes a living down there, and is certainly not known for his post game. Contrast that with Bosh, who is only assisted on 45% of his shots down low.

    Let's get this straight. Bargnani shoots mostly outside because HE wants to, and he's not nearly the post players that some fans seem to think.

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