Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Bargnani is the 5th Most Skilled 7 Footer?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Aresenalist, shot volumes come back on Jay.

    Comment


    • #17
      Andrea just needs to be better physically... he needs to box our wayyy more consistently and has to become better at pushing bigger centers out of the paint area... I've seen Andrea get abused inside againt guys like bogut and kaman and perkins... he lets those guys (and really everybody) get inside position on him wayyy to easily (and quickly)... I don't have a problem with his percentage actually but I would love it more if he was atleast a 40% 3pt shooter... he MUST get stronger around the rim and develop A FUCKING POST UP GAME... pisses me off when he doesn't get into the paint and abuse smaller players

      Comment


      • #18
        Arsenalist wrote: View Post
        There is something wrong with shooting 37% when he hoists by far the most threes on the team with 325, next closest is Turk with 289 and then Jack with 199. He's 5th on the team in 3pt percentage and Jack is 1st at 41%. Three-point shooting is HUGE (biggest?) part of his game and he's mediocre at it, that is not cool.
        The Raptors have a lot of problems. Bargnani's 3-point shooting is not among them. Trying to make it into a big deal is just not convincing. He hits at good rate. He takes a lot because his height lets him get them off easy, and because his role is to stretch the floor for Bosh (or Amir). That's all this is. On occasion he forces up threes, but the vast majority of the time they are legit open looks.

        Comment


        • #19
          malefax wrote: View Post
          The Raptors have a lot of problems. Bargnani's 3-point shooting is not among them. Trying to make it into a big deal is just not convincing. He hits at good rate. He takes a lot because his height lets him get them off easy, and because his role is to stretch the floor for Bosh (or Amir). That's all this is. On occasion he forces up threes, but the vast majority of the time they are legit open looks.
          The point is not that Bargnani isn't a good 3 point shooter. He's fine from beyond the arc. The point is that it is supposed to be the biggest part of his game, and it IS the best part of his game, and he's simply adequate at it. No more.

          And if the vast majority of his threes are open looks (which I agree with) why doesn't he shoot a better percentage from there? There are 60 guys in the league that shot a better percentage from there than Bargnani. SIXTY! And that's the best part of his game?

          He's a below average rebounder, defender, inside scorer and shot creator. And his biggest strength is simply adequate. Why exactly do some people think he's so skilled?
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
          Follow me on Twitter.

          Comment


          • #20
            Question: If the biggest part of Andrea Bargnani's game is the 3pt shot then why is it that only 29% of his shots came from beyond the arc?

            FYI, he shot 47% from the field last season.

            Comment


            • #21
              TIm W. wrote: View Post
              The point is not that Bargnani isn't a good 3 point shooter. He's fine from beyond the arc. The point is that it is supposed to be the biggest part of his game, and it IS the best part of his game, and he's simply adequate at it. No more.

              And if the vast majority of his threes are open looks (which I agree with) why doesn't he shoot a better percentage from there? There are 60 guys in the league that shot a better percentage from there than Bargnani. SIXTY! And that's the best part of his game?

              He's a below average rebounder, defender, inside scorer and shot creator. And his biggest strength is simply adequate. Why exactly do some people think he's so skilled?
              Because you have to take height into account when you're talking about skill. Saying that a guy has a great handle is impressive if he's 6'10. If he's 6'0, great doesn't cut it. 6'0 guys have to have sick, ridiculous handles, or they can't play in the NBA. That's just how it is.

              So yeah, Bargnani is just okay as a 3 point gunner, if you're looking at the entire NBA... 95% of which is shorter than him. But that's not the point. The point is, he is a guy who defends the centre position who is a good 3 point shooter.

              I don't get why this is confusing to people. You are aware why Rashard Lewis is paid like he is, right? There is a huge demand for stretch bigs in the NBA, because it is so useful to be able to draw 4 defenders out to the perimeter. And 3 point shooting, even 'okay' 3-point shooting like Bargs, is actually an incredibly difficult skill to master. There are lots of really great players who never really developed it that well (see Jordan, Michael, and Bryant, Kobe). Being 60th best in the NBA is actually damn impressive. And yeah, when you're 7'0" tall, it's a huge deal.

              Comment


              • #22
                Arsenalist wrote: View Post
                There is something wrong with shooting 37% when he hoists by far the most threes on the team with 325, next closest is Turk with 289 and then Jack with 199. He's 5th on the team in 3pt percentage and Jack is 1st at 41%. Three-point shooting is HUGE (biggest?) part of his game and he's mediocre at it, that is not cool.

                Saying 37% is great for a C wouldn't be incorrect if the C in question was a traditional C who rebounded, played defense and did, you know, shit other centers do. But since he doesn't do that, he better make it up by at least shooting 45% from three, otherwise it's not worth it.
                ok, now let's rationalize here the dude's 24 he's been decent overall, and there's alot of times where he's been good and he's been awful.

                it's not like he's 30 on the downside of his career and just hasn't been able to get anything consistent throughout his long career.(sounds a bit like a certain shooting forward)

                i'm still willing to give him a year or two to do what he should be consistently enough and if that doesn't happen. i'll agree with you.
                If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

                Comment


                • #23
                  37% on threes is the same as 50% on twos.

                  The problem is that when a 7 footer is only shooting 50% and doesn't get to the foul line his efficiency on offense is mediocre at best.

                  Bargnani's numbers were ----------TS% .552 and eFG% was .532 ORB% .046
                  Bosh's numbers were--------------- TS% .592 and eFG% was .522 ORB% .099
                  Johnson's numbers were----------- TS% .639 and eFG% was .623 ORB% .129
                  D. Howard's numbers were---------TS% .630 and eFG% was .612 ORB% .120

                  So when you look at the efficiency numbers on offense of the Raptors three big men in the rotation last year Johnson's numbers were the only one of the three whose numbers were comparable to D. Howard.

                  TS%
                  ---------
                  True Shooting Percentage; the formula is PTS / (2 * (FGA + 0.44 * FTA)). True shooting percentage is a measure of shooting efficiency that takes into account field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws.


                  EFG%
                  ---------
                  Effective Field Goal Percentage; the formula is (FG + 0.5 * 3P) / FGA. This statistic adjusts for the fact that a 3-point field goal is worth one more point than a 2-point field goal. For example, suppose Player A goes 4 for 10 with 2 threes, while Player B goes 5 for 10 with 0 threes. Each player would have 10 points from field goals, and thus would have the same effective field goal percentage (50%).

                  ORB%
                  ------------
                  Offensive Rebound Percentage (available since the 1970-71 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * (ORB * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm ORB + Opp DRB)). Offensive rebound percentage is an estimate of the percentage of available offensive rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.
                  http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html
                  Last edited by Buddahfan; Sat Apr 24, 2010, 12:35 PM.
                  Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                  Memories some so sweet, indeed

                  Larger Photo of the avatar



                  “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                  Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    malefax wrote: View Post
                    Because you have to take height into account when you're talking about skill. Saying that a guy has a great handle is impressive if he's 6'10. If he's 6'0, great doesn't cut it. 6'0 guys have to have sick, ridiculous handles, or they can't play in the NBA. That's just how it is.

                    So yeah, Bargnani is just okay as a 3 point gunner, if you're looking at the entire NBA... 95% of which is shorter than him. But that's not the point. The point is, he is a guy who defends the centre position who is a good 3 point shooter.

                    I don't get why this is confusing to people. You are aware why Rashard Lewis is paid like he is, right? There is a huge demand for stretch bigs in the NBA, because it is so useful to be able to draw 4 defenders out to the perimeter. And 3 point shooting, even 'okay' 3-point shooting like Bargs, is actually an incredibly difficult skill to master. There are lots of really great players who never really developed it that well (see Jordan, Michael, and Bryant, Kobe). Being 60th best in the NBA is actually damn impressive. And yeah, when you're 7'0" tall, it's a huge deal.
                    You have to take height into account when you're talking about skills like dribbling. Not shooting. How does the height of a person matter when talking about how well they shoot? The fact that a player has concentrated on shooting the three, despite being big enough to play inside doesn't impress me. ANYONE who practices shooting outside will eventually become half decent at it. There have been lots of big men who shot well from outside, but the fact of the matter is that most big men don't concentrate on that part of their game because they focus on playing inside. Bargnani ignored other parts of his game in order to become a better three point shooter. Great. How does that make him extra skilled?

                    And Rashard Lewis is VASTLY overpaid, but he's still far, far more skilled on both ends of the court than Bargnani is.

                    I've played with plenty of big guys who loved to shoot the three, but they were useless as big men because they didn't like to play inside.

                    Bargnani has one skill that is not below average. Shooting. I don't consider a guy who has one good skill, and a bunch of below average one's all that skilled. I call him one-dimensional.
                    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                    Follow me on Twitter.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      TIm W. wrote: View Post
                      Bargnani has one skill that is not below average. Shooting. I don't consider a guy who has one good skill, and a bunch of below average one's all that skilled. I call him one-dimensional.
                      For a 7 footer Bargnani is terribly inefficient on the offense end and the numbers support the reality.

                      People have come to the believe in one of the biggest fallacies in basketball as if it is a truism; i.e., if a person can make a three point shot relatively effectively he is a good shooter; i.e. he can shoot and score efficiently.

                      Bargnani last season averaged 1.2 points per field goal attempt. This is just horribly inefficient for a 7 footer. The Raptors as a team averaged 1.29 points per field goal attempt.

                      Bosh averaged 1.45 points per field goal attempt
                      Johnson averaged 1.55 points per fga
                      D. Howard averaged 1.80 points per fga

                      Anyone in the NBA can chuck up shots.

                      What makes a good shooter is one who averages the most points per shot taken.

                      If what Johnson does is so easy and requires no shooting skill than how come other players avoid it and instead chuck up shots from all over the court and wind up being terribly inefficient in their shooting?

                      Its not easy to do what he does. Johnson is a very good shooter. Bargnani is below average. The facts in this case don't lie.
                      Last edited by Buddahfan; Sat Apr 24, 2010, 04:02 PM.
                      Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                      Memories some so sweet, indeed

                      Larger Photo of the avatar



                      “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                      Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                        37% on threes is the same as 50% on twos.

                        The problem is that when a 7 footer is only shooting 50% and doesn't get to the foul line his efficiency on offense is mediocre at best.

                        Bargnani's numbers were ----------TS% .552 and eFG% was .532 ORB% .046
                        Bosh's numbers were--------------- TS% .592 and eFG% was .522 ORB% .099
                        Johnson's numbers were----------- TS% .639 and eFG% was .623 ORB% .129
                        D. Howard's numbers were---------TS% .630 and eFG% was .612 ORB% .120

                        So when you look at the efficiency numbers on offense of the Raptors three big men in the rotation last year Johnson's numbers were the only one of the three whose numbers were comparable to D. Howard.



                        http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html
                        As I said earlier in this thread only, 29% of Bargnani's offense comes on the perimeter, the rest comes from drives to the basket, mid range and post plays. Bargnani can give a defense fits and creates match up problems. You cannot quantify that with stats.

                        I don't think its fair to toss Johnson is there. He was a two bit player in the pecking order last year. He's not able to create for himself and he doesn't give opposing defenses really any match up issues. Johnson got easy baskets. He didn't take a lot of shots, he was an after thought who wasn't placed in tough situations and told to score. Dwight Howard is the center of the Magic's offense and he gets doubles. Johnson is nowhere close to Dwight Howard and I don't need a stat line to tell me that.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I, too, raised an eyebrow at the "great passer" comment...

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Apollo wrote: View Post
                            As I said earlier in this thread only, 29% of Bargnani's offense comes on the perimeter, the rest comes from drives to the basket, mid range and post plays.
                            Actually, 29% of his shots come from beyond the arc. According to 82games, 74% of Bargnani's shots come from the perimeter. And I'd say a mid range jump shot IS from the perimeter, especially when the majority of them are from beyond 15 feet.

                            Apollo wrote: View Post
                            I don't think its fair to toss Johnson is there. He was a two bit player in the pecking order last year. He's not able to create for himself and he doesn't give opposing defenses really any match up issues.
                            The problem with Bargnani is that HE doesn't create much for himself either. In fact, a higher percentage of Bargnani's baskets are assisted than Johnson's. Johnson doesn't create matchup problems, but he does create problems for the other team's defense because he's so active, something Bargnani is most definitely not. Johnson constantly cuts and goes after rebounds, which makes him more valuable than Bargnani.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Apollo wrote: View Post
                              As I said earlier in this thread only, 29% of Bargnani's offense comes on the perimeter, the rest comes from drives to the basket, mid range and post plays. Bargnani can give a defense fits and creates match up problems. You cannot quantify that with stats.

                              I don't think its fair to toss Johnson is there. He was a two bit player in the pecking order last year. He's not able to create for himself and he doesn't give opposing defenses really any match up issues. Johnson got easy baskets. He didn't take a lot of shots, he was an after thought who wasn't placed in tough situations and told to score. Dwight Howard is the center of the Magic's offense and he gets doubles. Johnson is nowhere close to Dwight Howard and I don't need a stat line to tell me that.
                              When it comes to offense Johnson is about as efficient as Howard.

                              Do you think that it is so easy to get open to be in position to be able to finish at a consistently high rate at the rim?

                              With all due respect if you do, you do not understand this facet of basketball.

                              If it was so easy then why doesn't everyone do it since Johnson's success rate is so high? 95% of the players don't do it, Bargnani included because it takes a skill to do it and guys like Bargnani don't have that skill.

                              As far as creating his own shot. Johnson had a lower percentage of assisted field goals than Bargnani.

                              You say a put back is not creating your own shot? Then you have a hole in your screen door.

                              Johnson is a more efficient and effective player than Bargnani on offense and a better shooter. Shooting is not just chucking the ball up from any where on the court. Shooting is putting the ball in the basket at a high rate of shots attempted and involves getting open, put backs, etc.

                              As far as Johnson being a two bit player. You are entitled to your opinion on that one.
                              Last edited by Buddahfan; Sun Apr 25, 2010, 02:44 PM.
                              Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                              Memories some so sweet, indeed

                              Larger Photo of the avatar



                              “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                              Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Could he also be the most useless skilled 7 footer in the league? I mean he does what guards are supposed to do but nothing of what a center is supposed to do. He isn't an inside presence and doesn't get enough boards... and he's 7 feet tall!

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X