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  • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    Ah..the puerile whining of yet another lost argument...
    EVERY name on the list was an NBA head coach....

    Anyone on that list you want to make a case for as to what he should supplant DC as Raps Head Coach ?
    No, it's me, really. I can tell you - I meant active. Just as coaches I listed are active - in 2016. I thought it was obvious - but obviously not to everyone. Can you list 20 active coaches that Dwane is better than? Okay. I've been challenged on Brad Stevens, Fred Hoiberg and Jason Kidd. Okay so that leaves 7 seemingly acknowledged to be better. I disagree but it's obviously open to debate.

    So. Which active, present coaches, is Dwane Casey better than? Name as many as you can please. And because I didn't include John wooden , Larry Brown, Phil Jackson, Red Aurbach, Jerry Sloan etc. Im hoping you'll be able to respond in the spirit of the conversation if not the letter of it.

    Sincerely,
    big boi

    Comment


    • big boi wrote: View Post
      Hard to disagree. But I think he'll be pretty effective for us in 25 mins a night next year even while overweight.
      My understanding is that he started last season in shape but then gained a lot of weight as the season wore on. Can't see him not being in shape early on. The question will be whether he maintains it.
      If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

      Comment


      • I want them to pick up Avery Johnson as the defencive replacement.

        Comment


        • big boi wrote: View Post
          No, it's me, really. I can tell you - I meant active. Just as coaches I listed are active - in 2016. I thought it was obvious - but obviously not to everyone. Can you list 20 active coaches that Dwane is better than? Okay. I've been challenged on Brad Stevens, Fred Hoiberg and Jason Kidd. Okay so that leaves 7 seemingly acknowledged to be better. I disagree but it's obviously open to debate.

          So. Which active, present coaches, is Dwane Casey better than? Name as many as you can please. And because I didn't include John wooden , Larry Brown, Phil Jackson, Red Aurbach, Jerry Sloan etc. Im hoping you'll be able to respond in the spirit of the conversation if not the letter of it.

          Sincerely,
          big boi
          Sorry not to be up to your obviously clearly intuitive question...

          Seeing that this has been a long drawn out discussion on Dwanes abilities vs others and is entirely subjective depending on how you feel perhaps we can use a metric or contest that measures that subjectivity for this calander year. The voting for Coach of the Year.

          Dwane finished 5th behind the winner Steve Kerr.. runners up Terry Stotts, Greg Popovitch and Steve Clifford.
          So it would be logical to assume that the remaining 25 guys who finished behind Dwane in the voting didn't do as good a coaching job as the 5 guys, including Dwane, who finished ahead of them. At least this year.

          The vote isn't rigged or voted on by a fan poll. Its done like most coach of the year ballots through the various sports writers and beat writers who meet the criteria of a league sanctioned vote. Geez even the sainted Zach Lowe might even have a vote.

          So heres the written list of NBA coaches who fell behind Dwane ...

          Head coach Team
          Steve Kerr* Golden State Warriors
          Terry Stotts Portland Trail Blazers
          Gregg Popovich* San Antonio Spurs
          Steve Clifford* Charlotte Hornets
          Dwane Casey Toronto Raptors

          The named remaining 20 plus coaches who Dwane was voted better than this year.

          Mike Budenholzer* Atlanta Hawks
          Brad Stevens* Boston Celtics
          Lionel Hollins / Kenny Atkinson* Brooklyn Nets
          Fred Hoiberg* Chicago Bulls
          Tyronn Lue* David Blatt Cleveland Cavaliers
          Rick Carlisle Dallas Mavericks
          Michael Malone Denver Nuggets
          Stan Van Gundy Detroit Pistons
          Mike D'Antoni / JB Bickerstaff Houston Rockets
          Nate McMillan / Frank Vogel Indiana Pacers
          Doc Rivers Los Angeles Clippers
          Luke Walton*/ Byron Scott Los Angeles Lakers
          David Fizdale*/ David Joeger Memphis Grizzlies
          Erik Spoelstra* Miami Heat
          Jason Kidd Milwaukee Bucks
          Tom Thibodeau / Sam Mitchell Minnesota Timberwolves
          Alvin Gentry New Orleans Pelicans
          Jeff Hornacek / Kurt Rambis / Derek Fisher New York Knicks
          Billy Donovan* Oklahoma City Thunder
          Frank Vogel / Scott Skiles Orlando Magic
          Brett Brown* Philadelphia 76ers
          Earl Watson*/ Jeff Hornacek Phoenix Suns
          Dave Joerger / To Many to Name Sacramento Kings
          Gregg Popovich* San Antonio Spurs
          Quin Snyder* Utah Jazz
          Scott Brooks / Randy Whitman Washington Wizards

          Sincerely,

          DS
          There's no such thing as a 2nd round bust.
          - TGO

          Comment


          • TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post
            I want them to pick up Avery Johnson as the defencive replacement.
            That .. if Avery would take the gig... is a very solid candidate.
            There's no such thing as a 2nd round bust.
            - TGO

            Comment


            • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
              Sorry not to be up to your obviously clearly intuitive question...

              Seeing that this has been a long drawn out discussion on Dwanes abilities vs others and is entirely subjective depending on how you feel perhaps we can use a metric or contest that measures that subjectivity for this calander year. The voting for Coach of the Year.

              Dwane finished 5th behind the winner Steve Kerr.. runners up Terry Stotts, Greg Popovitch and Steve Clifford.
              So it would be logical to assume that the remaining 25 guys who finished behind Dwane in the voting didn't do as good a coaching job as the 5 guys, including Dwane, who finished ahead of them. At least this year.

              The vote isn't rigged or voted on by a fan poll. Its done like most coach of the year ballots through the various sports writers and beat writers who meet the criteria of a league sanctioned vote. Geez even the sainted Zach Lowe might even have a vote.

              So heres the written list of NBA coaches who fell behind Dwane ...

              Head coach Team
              Steve Kerr* Golden State Warriors
              Terry Stotts Portland Trail Blazers
              Gregg Popovich* San Antonio Spurs
              Steve Clifford* Charlotte Hornets
              Dwane Casey Toronto Raptors

              The named remaining 20 plus coaches who Dwane was voted better than this year.

              Mike Budenholzer* Atlanta Hawks
              Brad Stevens* Boston Celtics
              Lionel Hollins / Kenny Atkinson* Brooklyn Nets
              Fred Hoiberg* Chicago Bulls
              Tyronn Lue* David Blatt Cleveland Cavaliers
              Rick Carlisle Dallas Mavericks
              Michael Malone Denver Nuggets
              Stan Van Gundy Detroit Pistons
              Mike D'Antoni / JB Bickerstaff Houston Rockets
              Nate McMillan / Frank Vogel Indiana Pacers
              Doc Rivers Los Angeles Clippers
              Luke Walton*/ Byron Scott Los Angeles Lakers
              David Fizdale*/ David Joeger Memphis Grizzlies
              Erik Spoelstra* Miami Heat
              Jason Kidd Milwaukee Bucks
              Tom Thibodeau / Sam Mitchell Minnesota Timberwolves
              Alvin Gentry New Orleans Pelicans
              Jeff Hornacek / Kurt Rambis / Derek Fisher New York Knicks
              Billy Donovan* Oklahoma City Thunder
              Frank Vogel / Scott Skiles Orlando Magic
              Brett Brown* Philadelphia 76ers
              Earl Watson*/ Jeff Hornacek Phoenix Suns
              Dave Joerger / To Many to Name Sacramento Kings
              Gregg Popovich* San Antonio Spurs
              Quin Snyder* Utah Jazz
              Scott Brooks / Randy Whitman Washington Wizards

              Sincerely,

              DS
              Thank you for having the courage of your convictions.

              Comment


              • big boi wrote: View Post
                Thank you for having the courage of your convictions.
                i'd bump Stevens over Casey......

                I like Vogal but i'd give Casey the slight edge overall but its tough. Kidd is overrated...Rivers was also overrated. He was better when he had ONE JOB.

                I also put Rick Carlise above casey...cause Casey learned from him and he won a Championship. He always seems to get the best from mediocre teams + Dirk

                Comment


                • The conundrum that is Jared S. A scary expose of his weaknesses and why. Masai rolled the dice here.

                  https://tipofthetower.com/2016/07/13...red-sullinger/

                  Comment


                  • TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post
                    i'd bump Stevens over Casey......

                    I like Vogal but i'd give Casey the slight edge overall but its tough. Kidd is overrated...Rivers was also overrated. He was better when he had ONE JOB.

                    I also put Rick Carlise above casey...cause Casey learned from him and he won a Championship. He always seems to get the best from mediocre teams + Dirk
                    It is fine to have an opinion, but the closest thing to an objective ranking would have to be the ranking assigned in the COY voting, would it not? Or would you consider yourself to be a better judge of coaching candidates than the sanctioned list of ballot casters? They all probably see a lot more games than anyone on this forum, know more people who are more deeply integrated into the teams than anyone here, and (maybe a big supposition, maybe not) know more about the game than most folks here.

                    The definition of a good coach would have to be someone who achieves as close to a maximum result with the players and staff available to him as is possible. Based on what we have seen in TO, he doesn't hire the assistant coaches, trainers, scouts, or anyone else. Only the GM does that. And then he takes the players hired by the GM and sits down with the assistants hired by the GM and tries to come up with strategies to win games against teams that have been scouted by his assistants. I assume he comes up with player development plans, in consultation with his S&C coach and the PD coach. His principal role would seem to be watching game tape, running the strategy and tactics during the game and motivating the team members before, during and after the games played.

                    Casey certainly has the respect of the players. They all uniformly seem to speak very well of him. We almost never hear of any players complaining. Aside from JJ wanting more floor time I can't recall any other complaints, offhand.

                    I'd personally agree with the sanctioned voters for COY. Casey should be top 5 or 6 this year. Definitely top 10. Clearly everyone who came in 11th and lower in the voting is worse at coaching than him.

                    Comment


                    • Bendit wrote: View Post
                      The conundrum that is Jared S. A scary expose of his weaknesses and why. Masai rolled the dice here.

                      https://tipofthetower.com/2016/07/13...red-sullinger/
                      I read someplace else that someone close to Sullinger (maybe his agent) said that getting waived was kind of a wake-up call for him. He see's all the money floating around the NBA. Numerous basketball savants have pointed out that players equal to or worse than Sullinger got paid in the $10-12 million range. I guess Masai is hoping that will be strong motivation for him. If he stays in the same shape, he is at best a bench rotation guy, down the road, potentially prone to injury. If he drops 30 pounds and keeps it off this season, he could be looking at a $40-50 million contract. That should be a big motivator.

                      Of course, the NBA hasn't lacked self-destructive players in the past or present, and likely won't in the future. It's just that the stakes seem so much greater now.

                      Comment


                      • Everything Jared Sullinger

                        Puffer wrote: View Post
                        It is fine to have an opinion, but the closest thing to an objective ranking would have to be the ranking assigned in the COY voting, would it not? Or would you consider yourself to be a better judge of coaching candidates than the sanctioned list of ballot casters? They all probably see a lot more games than anyone on this forum, know more people who are more deeply integrated into the teams than anyone here, and (maybe a big supposition, maybe not) know more about the game than most folks here.

                        The definition of a good coach would have to be someone who achieves as close to a maximum result with the players and staff available to him as is possible. Based on what we have seen in TO, he doesn't hire the assistant coaches, trainers, scouts, or anyone else. Only the GM does that. And then he takes the players hired by the GM and sits down with the assistants hired by the GM and tries to come up with strategies to win games against teams that have been scouted by his assistants. I assume he comes up with player development plans, in consultation with his S&C coach and the PD coach. His principal role would seem to be watching game tape, running the strategy and tactics during the game and motivating the team members before, during and after the games played.

                        Casey certainly has the respect of the players. They all uniformly seem to speak very well of him. We almost never hear of any players complaining. Aside from JJ wanting more floor time I can't recall any other complaints, offhand.

                        I'd personally agree with the sanctioned voters for COY. Casey should be top 5 or 6 this year. Definitely top 10. Clearly everyone who came in 11th and lower in the voting is worse at coaching than him.
                        Problem with COY is that voters are solely looking at the regular season of one year. When discussing the best, shouldn't multiple seasons be considered?

                        Rick Carlisle didn't get as many votes in COY but you'd have a hard time reasoning that Casey is a better coach.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                        Comment


                        • Original poster discounted past coaches who were currently playing as assistants or no longer coaching. So it seems the terms of the question were for this year. I don't know how the voters vote. Sam Mitchell won for increasing the Raps win column by whatever number of games it was, even though they didn't get out of the first round (or was it the second round). So presumably voters give credit to coaches who do a great job with a lack of talent. Which wouldn't preclude anyone form the voting.

                          I tried to present my perspective based on what I thought OP was talking about.

                          Comment


                          • Puffer wrote: View Post
                            Original poster discounted past coaches who were currently playing as assistants or no longer coaching. So it seems the terms of the question were for this year. I don't know how the voters vote. Sam Mitchell won for increasing the Raps win column by whatever number of games it was, even though they didn't get out of the first round (or was it the second round). So presumably voters give credit to coaches who do a great job with a lack of talent. Which wouldn't preclude anyone form the voting.

                            I tried to present my perspective based on what I thought OP was talking about.
                            Which is fair but not necessarily reflective of this coming season. If Casey finishes 10th this season does that mean he regressed? Probably not as the voting can vary greatly each year.
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                            Comment


                            • Axel wrote: View Post
                              Which is fair but not necessarily reflective of this coming season. If Casey finishes 10th this season does that mean he regressed? Probably not as the voting can vary greatly each year.
                              No argument from me. Last year he finished tied with Rick Carlisle, Jeff Horacek and Monty Williams for 11th in voting. Still puts him in the upper half or the leagues coaches.

                              Comment


                              • TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post
                                i'd bump Stevens over Casey......

                                I like Vogal but i'd give Casey the slight edge overall but its tough. Kidd is overrated...Rivers was also overrated. He was better when he had ONE JOB.

                                I also put Rick Carlise above casey...cause Casey learned from him and he won a Championship. He always seems to get the best from mediocre teams + Dirk
                                You wouldn't put pop over Casey too? Not Spoelstra? Wow.

                                Comment

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