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Everything Jared Sullinger

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  • DanH wrote: View Post
    When DeMar went down for a month and a half last year, Lowry carried a 29% usage and a 54% TS%. George over his past two healthy seasons has carried a 29% average usage and a 55% TS%. Shocking difference. And even as a secondary ball handler, as you put it, Lowry carries a very heavy usage. He's not exactly being hidden behind a low usage. 26% is very, very high for a PG. Nevermind the massive minutes he has to carry (even more than George carried except in 4 fewer games).

    Now, George certainly has more ability to carry that heavy usage over long periods of time - it's simply not Lowry's game to carry high usage and he got beat up quick. But lower usage players can still be more valuable offensively. Especially when they are more efficient, as Lowry is (yes, even when removing the free throws).

    Yes, it is impossible to filter out the situation each player is in. And I'm not insulting George here - he's a tremendous player, top 10 talent in all likelihood. But so is Lowry. Of course the Raptors have built a better team around Lowry. We won 56 games and Indy sure didn't. But that doesn't mean Lowry is a lesser player.
    I think I wasn't clear about the usage/primary ball handler point. This was partially in response to the team drop-off when Lowry sits; i.e., because we run the same offense with CoJo and DeMar taking on Lowry's role, which they just aren't as good at.

    Secondly, the energy saving issue is related to hiding Lowry on defense, not Lowry's usage on offense, meaning when Lowry and CoJo play together (especially against opposition benches), Lowry can guard the lesser player thus conserving energy to be more officient on offense - unlike George, for example who might consistently take on the opposition team's 1st or 2nd scoring option night-in / night-out and still be expected to score efficiently himself at high usage.

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    • DanH wrote: View Post
      When DeMar went down for a month and a half last year, Lowry carried a 29% usage and a 54% TS%. George over his past two healthy seasons has carried a 29% average usage and a 55% TS%. Shocking difference. And even as a secondary ball handler, as you put it, Lowry carries a very heavy usage. He's not exactly being hidden behind a low usage. 26% is very, very high for a PG. Nevermind the massive minutes he has to carry (even more than George carried except in 4 fewer games).

      Now, George certainly has more ability to carry that heavy usage over long periods of time - it's simply not Lowry's game to carry high usage and he got beat up quick. But lower usage players can still be more valuable offensively. Especially when they are more efficient, as Lowry is (yes, even when removing the free throws).

      Yes, it is impossible to filter out the situation each player is in. And I'm not insulting George here - he's a tremendous player, top 10 talent in all likelihood. But so is Lowry. Of course the Raptors have built a better team around Lowry. We won 56 games and Indy sure didn't. But that doesn't mean Lowry is a lesser player.

      I have nothing against Lowry and enjoy your detailed analysis and breakdowns, but Paul George is called on to carry heavy USG% on a nightly basis and play elite defense on the other team's best perimeter player with no true sidekick and inconsistent help. If he doesn't, the Pacers lose. Lowry has a better supporting cast and isn't asked to do that, and while he did carry a heavy usage when DeMar was injured last year, he paid for it via injuries later on that season. It's not something he was ever going to shy away from, but his body couldn't handle that much responsibility as the season wore on, even after DeMar returned and his load was lessened.

      Paul George is a top 10 talent. Lowry is not-- and that isn't a slight against Lowry. He's been phenomenal, but let's hold off from vaulting him into the upper echelon of the league. If we're talking top 10, I would put the following ahead of him [in no particular order]:

      LeBron James
      Stephen Curry
      Kawhi Leonard
      Kevin Durant
      Russell Westbrook
      Paul George
      DeMarcus Cousins
      James Harden
      Chris Paul
      Draymond Green

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      • Sinbad wrote: View Post
        I have nothing against Lowry and enjoy your detailed analysis and breakdowns, but Paul George is called on to carry heavy USG% on a nightly basis and play elite defense on the other team's best perimeter player with no true sidekick and inconsistent help. If he doesn't, the Pacers lose. Lowry has a better supporting cast and isn't asked to do that, and while he did carry a heavy usage when DeMar was injured last year, he paid for it via injuries later on that season. It's not something he was ever going to shy away from, but his body couldn't handle that much responsibility as the season wore on, even after DeMar returned and his load was lessened.

        Paul George is a top 10 talent. Lowry is not-- and that isn't a slight against Lowry. He's been phenomenal, but let's hold off from vaulting him into the upper echelon of the league. If we're talking top 10, I would put the following ahead of him [in no particular order]:

        LeBron James
        Stephen Curry
        Kawhi Leonard
        Kevin Durant
        Russell Westbrook
        Paul George
        DeMarcus Cousins
        James Harden
        Chris Paul
        Draymond Green
        I think lowry is better all around then harden green and cousins. But, like the 3 of them, he's on the outer tier of top 10 behind the mvp guys at the top. He's definitely "arguably" top 10
        9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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        • golden wrote: View Post
          I think I wasn't clear about the usage/primary ball handler point. This was partially in response to the team drop-off when Lowry sits; i.e., because we run the same offense with CoJo and DeMar taking on Lowry's role, which they just aren't as good at.

          Secondly, the energy saving issue is related to hiding Lowry on defense, not Lowry's usage on offense, meaning when Lowry and CoJo play together (especially against opposition benches), Lowry can guard the lesser player thus conserving energy to be more officient on offense - unlike George, for example who might consistently take on the opposition team's 1st or 2nd scoring option night-in / night-out and still be expected to score efficiently himself at high usage.
          The primary attacking option when DD is on the floor is DD, even when he shares the floor with Lowry.

          I agree that George does a whole bunch more individually than Lowry does. That does not make him a better player than Lowry, just a different one. When Nash was at his peak, he was brutal defensively, got hidden by his team on weaker offensive players, and had an offensive system built around his strengths. And he was still one of the best players in the league. And Lowry doesn't have nearly the same level of caveats - for one, you are very much overstating the degree of him being hidden on defence - he takes tough assignments the majority of every game and gets some small relief playing with Joseph.

          Meanwhile, in terms of his impact, it's not just the offence that struggles when Lowry sits, the defence falls apart too. He's critical to the success of the team on both ends.

          Paul George absolutely gets asked more of him by the Pacers. That does not make him a better player. His ability to carry a heavier load for longer durations makes him a hardier player, but hardier is not better. That Lowry is able to play within himself to a degree just means the Raptors are a better team. By almost any measure, Lowry and George grade out roughly the same (with Lowry, quite frankly, winning out in many metrics) in terms of win contribution.
          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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          • DanH wrote: View Post
            The primary attacking option when DD is on the floor is DD, even when he shares the floor with Lowry.

            I agree that George does a whole bunch more individually than Lowry does. That does not make him a better player than Lowry, just a different one. When Nash was at his peak, he was brutal defensively, got hidden by his team on weaker offensive players, and had an offensive system built around his strengths. And he was still one of the best players in the league. And Lowry doesn't have nearly the same level of caveats - for one, you are very much overstating the degree of him being hidden on defence - he takes tough assignments the majority of every game and gets some small relief playing with Joseph.

            Meanwhile, in terms of his impact, it's not just the offence that struggles when Lowry sits, the defence falls apart too. He's critical to the success of the team on both ends.

            Paul George absolutely gets asked more of him by the Pacers. That does not make him a better player. His ability to carry a heavier load for longer durations makes him a hardier player, but hardier is not better. That Lowry is able to play within himself to a degree just means the Raptors are a better team. By almost any measure, Lowry and George grade out roughly the same (with Lowry, quite frankly, winning out in many metrics) in terms of win contribution.
            Hardier? Never heard that one before. Lol. What does that even mean?

            Paul George's ability to carry a heavier load and still perform at a high level for longer periods and in the playoffs IS the definition of better player. Contrast that with Lowry, who either breaks down physically or mentally or just isn't talented enough to overcome defenses specifically game-planning for him, even with the benefit of DeMar being the primary scorer.

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            • KeonClark wrote: View Post
              I think lowry is better all around then harden green and cousins. But, like the 3 of them, he's on the outer tier of top 10 behind the mvp guys at the top. He's definitely "arguably" top 10
              actually espn ranked him in the top 10 for this past year. If you look at just regular season he was there and deserved to be there. he was even in the MVP conversation for most of the season... except steph ran away with it winning 73 games helps.

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              • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                I think lowry is better all around then harden green and cousins. But, like the 3 of them, he's on the outer tier of top 10 behind the mvp guys at the top. He's definitely "arguably" top 10
                When he plays well he is definitely top 10 in the MVP conversation, but he usually can't sustain it.

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                • golden wrote: View Post
                  Hardier? Never heard that one before. Lol. What does that even mean?

                  Paul George's ability to carry a heavier load and still perform at a high level for longer periods and in the playoffs IS the definition of better player. Contrast that with Lowry, who either breaks down physically or mentally or just isn't talented enough to overcome defenses specifically game-planning for him, even with the benefit of DeMar being the primary scorer.
                  So DeMar is a better player than Lowry? He's certainly hardier. That's a ridiculous thing to say. Being an iron man doesn't qualify one for superstar status. It's just one factor of many. George is certainly hardier, while Lowry is better in other aspects.

                  har·dy
                  ˈhärdē/
                  adjective
                  comparative adjective: hardier
                  robust; capable of enduring difficult conditions.
                  synonyms: robust, healthy, fit, strong, sturdy, tough, rugged, hearty, lusty, vigorous, hale and hearty, fit as a fiddle, fighting fit, in fine fettle, in good health, in good condition; datedstalwart
                  "our tiny frail baby has grown into a strapping hardy man"
                  (of a plant) able to survive outside during winter.
                  twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                  • DanH wrote: View Post
                    So DeMar is a better player than Lowry? He's certainly hardier. That's a ridiculous thing to say. Being an iron man doesn't qualify one for superstar status. It's just one factor of many. George is certainly hardier, while Lowry is better in other aspects.
                    PG is way better than Lowry defensivly, and steps ahead on offense.

                    Paul steps up in the Playoffs, he is a better scorer, better at getting to the line, he can guard 1-4 and some 5s, he's also a better shooter. He's LeBorn lite.
                    Abbas wrote:

                    First of all i was my own source

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                    • Lowry is a better shooter than George and is better at getting to the line. I would argue Lowry is a better team defender (though George is an amazing one on one defender). Lowry is a better playmaker (though about even when normalized to position and usage) and a better rebounder for his position.

                      George is great, and is indeed a top flight player in the league. I have no qualms with that. Lowry is too, though.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • This is getting out of hand. JV is no where near PG's level and Kyle Lowry is on the same level as PG. I would still give PG the edge though. He's lead the Pacers to multiple deep playoffs runs. Also basing your theory after one series is silly to me. All that really proves is that player x matches up well against the opposing team.
                        Last edited by Chr1s1anL; Sat Jul 30, 2016, 10:19 AM.
                        @Chr1st1anL

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                        • Everything Jared Sullinger

                          DanH wrote: View Post
                          Lowry is a better shooter than George and is better at getting to the line. I would argue Lowry is a better team defender (though George is an amazing one on one defender). Lowry is a better playmaker (though about even when normalized to position and usage) and a better rebounder for his position.

                          George is great, and is indeed a top flight player in the league. I have no qualms with that. Lowry is too, though.
                          I guess we have to agree to disagree ?

                          PG and Lowry are both top 10 players Imo but I to have pg ahead of klow

                          1 player on cavs
                          2 Kd
                          3 curry
                          4 Leonard
                          5 westbrook
                          6 Davis
                          7 Green
                          8 George
                          9 C Paul
                          10 Lowry
                          11 Cousins
                          12 Harden
                          13 Butler
                          14 Lillard
                          15 Aldridge
                          16 Griffin
                          17 Derozan
                          18 Thompson
                          19 Millsap
                          20 Irving
                          21 Thomas
                          22 Wall
                          23 Wade
                          24 Drummond
                          25 KAT
                          Last edited by Axel; Sat Jul 30, 2016, 03:19 PM.
                          Abbas wrote:

                          First of all i was my own source

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                          • Everything Jared Sullinger

                            Abbas wrote: View Post
                            I guess we have to agree to disagree ?

                            PG and Lowry are both top 10 players Imo but I to have pg ahead of klow

                            1 player on cavs
                            2 Kd
                            3 curry
                            4 Leonard
                            5 westbrook
                            6 Davis
                            7 Green
                            8 George
                            9 C Paul
                            10 Lowry
                            11 Cousins
                            12 Harden
                            13 Butler
                            14 Lillard
                            15 Aldridge
                            16 Griffin
                            17 Derozan
                            18 Thompson
                            19 Millsap
                            20 Irving
                            21 Thomas
                            22 Wall
                            23 Wade
                            24 Drummond
                            25 KAT
                            See but this is what I'm saying, we can quibble over one being slightly better than the other, but my point is they are essentially at the same tier of quasi-superstar.
                            Last edited by Axel; Sat Jul 30, 2016, 03:19 PM.
                            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                            • DanH wrote: View Post
                              See but this is what I'm saying, we can quibble over one being slightly better than the other, but my point is they are essentially at the same tier of quasi-superstar.
                              Lowry can't carry the team as the main man (with no 1B option) for an entire season. He did it for a month (and what a great month that was) but broke down completely afterwards. That's why George is on a different level, and what I think golden's point was.

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                              • This Sullinger thread is one of the most interesting going. Lots of discussion, lots of info and no wild spinning off into "You Suck!"

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