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Thread: Arse Says Offer Johnson No More Than $3.5 Million

  1. #21
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I like Amir. He seems like a nice, genuine player. I just don't think the team should pay a premium for potential and manners. We'll see how much he really loves Toronto's fans when he has to pick between them and another team offering in around the same ball park. Talk is cheap.

  2. #22
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    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    i'm sorry, how are amir & amare similar again? besides, of course, their names?
    Actually, I think Amir is very similar to Chris Paul, minus the quickness, handles, shooting and passing ability. But Johnson has nearly a foot on Paul, so he could end up being better!

  3. #23
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    Quote TM Williamson wrote: View Post
    One is a power forward whose role is rebounding, defense, and finishing around the rim. He brings energy off the bench, is limited offensively, and thrives on hustle plays.

    One is a power forward who is one of the premier offensive players in the NBA, is the primary scoring option on one of the league's best teams, and averages over 20 ppg for his career.

    You really think the second description is more appropriate for Amir? I get where you're coming from, and I agree his overall game is well ahead of Reggie Evans, but his role and playing style are similar. Amare averaged 20 a game even before Nash came to Phoenix, and that was also before he even really developed a face up game. I love Amir, but a Stoudemire comparison is giving him WAY too much credit offensively.
    Amir is more than just garbage, hustle points though. Obviously he is good at that, as is Reggie. But that is not the most intriguing part of Amir's game, to me.

    The coolest part about his game is that he can run PnR to perfection. Reggie cannot do this, because he has stone hands and cannot finish at the rim.

    If you focus only on the garbage points, then yes, Amir is Reggie. But if you look at how Triano used Amir to create for Bargnani while CB was out (in PnR situations, especially the Detroit game), it becomes clear that the Amare comp is not out of line. Remember, Amare's game is composed of jumpshooting, isos, and PnR play. His PnR play is his biggest strength, what makes him a big time player.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Rookie TM Williamson's Avatar
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Whatever.

    That is why I posted on earlier on this thread that I wasn't going to bring it up at this point because I knew that most people couldn't see it. Be that as it may Raptors fans negative opinions about his game won't stop his progress. Triano has let the old cat, in this case Big Dawg, out of the bag and the game is now afoot.

    Watch next season and have your eyes opened to the future.

    I am now done with this thread. Adios for this thread for me.
    Saying that a bench player is not comparable to one of the best players in the league is not a "negative opinion about his game." It's called being realistic. Perhaps you missed me saying "I love Amir"? Because I don't see how I could love Amir, yet have a "negative opinion about his game."

    I will watch next season, and I will see a player that plays hard, rebounds well, and finishes around the rim when given the opportunity. I will not see a player who creates for himself, gets to the line regularly, and dominates games.

    Again I will say, I love Amir. I would really like to see him back next year. But he is not, nor will he likely ever be, an Amare Stoudemire type player. Amir's game is based off of hustle, rebounding, and defense. Amare is an elite scorer. Beyond their body type and athletic ability, they simply are not the same player.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Rookie TM Williamson's Avatar
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    Quote Ripp wrote: View Post
    Amir is more than just garbage, hustle points though. Obviously he is good at that, as is Reggie. But that is not the most intriguing part of Amir's game, to me.

    The coolest part about his game is that he can run PnR to perfection. Reggie cannot do this, because he has stone hands and cannot finish at the rim.

    If you focus only on the garbage points, then yes, Amir is Reggie. But if you look at how Triano used Amir to create for Bargnani while CB was out (in PnR situations, especially the Detroit game), it becomes clear that the Amare comp is not out of line. Remember, Amare's game is composed of jumpshooting, isos, and PnR play. His PnR play is his biggest strength, what makes him a big time player.
    Fair enough, he did run the pick and roll with a lot of success. I get the comparison in that regard.

    My point though is that Amir isn't a primary offensive threat, and likely will never be. Amir's court time is dependant on his rebounding and defense, not his scoring. So in that regard, I view him as more comparable to a Reggie Evans type of player (although I only used Reggie because he's also on the Raptors. There are certainly more apt comparisons across the league)

    Basically, I'm just saying I don't see Amir ever becoming an offensive presence anywhere close to what Amare is. The isos are a major part of that, as Amare can create for himself, get to the line, and beat his man one on one, which we haven't really seen from Amir. I will concede though that his ability on the pick and roll makes him much more valuable offensively than Reggie Evans, and other players who rely strictly on the garbage points.

  6. #26
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    ^-- Good response, and something I'll mostly agree with. I don't think Amir needs to become a high-usage offensive presence like Amare. The best part about Amare's game is the PnR play. That+rebounding+defense is more valuable to me than pure iso scoring (something that Amare truthfully is very overrated at.)

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    lock him up, like we locked up jack, 5 mill. 3-5 years.

    he's a good player so i don't care what you offer him. because he'll shopw it on the court i mean dude is a solid backup and maybe even half decent starter.

    enough of this oh that's overpaying. no, the only over payment is hedo. he gets paid twice as much to fail at what jason kapono did.
    Last edited by LBF; Mon May 17th, 2010 at 04:08 PM.
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  8. #28
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    hedo. he gets paid twice as much to fail at what jason kapono did.
    I think that's harsh. I would say the Hedo is equally overpaid as Kapono was because Hedo is twice the player that Kapono was/is... And in my opinion that's a conservative statement on my part.

    I think the mentality shouldn't be let's overpay for player C because we overpaid for players A and B. That sort of sounds like how Thomas ruined the Knicks for a decade.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Rookie TM Williamson's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    enough of this oh that's overpaying. no, the only over payment is hedo. he gets paid twice as much to fail at what jason kapono did.
    The fact that we already have a massively overpaid player on our roster (more than one, actually) should make Colangelo more wary of overpaying again. Comparing prospective signings to Hedo's deal will be a quick way to get capped out with average players.

    As they say, fool Colangelo once, shame on you. Fool Colangelo twice, shame on him. (Fool Colangelo repeatedly over the course of 5 years, and your name is Andrea Bargnani. But that's a totally different story.)

  10. #30
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    With Wall almost definitely going to be drafted by the Wiz I decided to glance at their roster of returning players as of July 1st.

    It turns out that they only have 2 bigs signed to contracts; i.e. Blatche and McGee.

    In addition Saunders coached Johnson in Detroit.

    It will be very interesting to see if the Wiz make him an offer and if they do what he decides to do.

    Odds of him going there if offered a contract have probably just gone up a bit with Wall most likely be drafted by the Wiz, as well as his price?

    We shall see
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  11. #31
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    Quote Ripp wrote: View Post
    Amir is an UFA...Raps are competing on the open market against all other teams.

    Comparing Reggie Evans to Amir is ridiculous. If you want, compare him to Amare minus the faceup game...that would be a more accurate comparison.
    That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on these young forums. Adding "minus a faceup game" or not. Just because he ran a few PnRs with Jose doesn't make him a PnR player. Amir is a garbage-man/hustler much like Reggie Evans, he is not close to being as polished as Amare to warrant any sort of comparison. Maybe their heights are similar, but that's about it.

    There's a reason Johnson ate into Evans' minutes and it has to do with them providing the same energy/hustle off the bench. Johnson happens to be a better finisher around the rim, plays within his limited skill-set and his height and lateral quicks makes him a better defender than Reggie.

    I honestly don't even think Reggie is a bad fit for the team, he's not the defender he was pre-injury two or three years ago, but he can still be a good guy to bring in off the bench. However, nobody needs two guys to play the JYD role.

  12. #32
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    ^--- What are you talking about? Check out his TS%, and compare to Amare. Consider how Triano used Amir to create open shots for Bargnani against Detroit (google his comments from that game, if you like.)

    Here are their shot distributions, Amir vs. Amare, from Hoopdata:

    http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...NSi1laWc&hl=en


    Amir is 73.1% at the rim, Amare 67%. 65% of Amir's attempts are at the rim, 48% for Amare. 66.5% assist rate for Amir, 62.6% for Amare. The key difference is that Amare takes 28% of his shots at 16-23 foot jumpers, Amir only does 10%....

    His PnR game is absolutely deadly, and to think he is only a "hustle" big is foolish. 73.1% at the rim means you should run PnR with him all day...

  13. #33
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    Quote Ripp wrote: View Post
    ^--- What are you talking about? Check out his TS%, and compare to Amare. Consider how Triano used Amir to create open shots for Bargnani against Detroit (google his comments from that game, if you like.)

    Here are their shot distributions, Amir vs. Amare, from Hoopdata:

    http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...NSi1laWc&hl=en


    Amir is 73.1% at the rim, Amare 67%. 65% of Amir's attempts are at the rim, 48% for Amare. 66.5% assist rate for Amir, 62.6% for Amare. The key difference is that Amare takes 28% of his shots at 16-23 foot jumpers, Amir only does 10%....

    His PnR game is absolutely deadly, and to think he is only a "hustle" big is foolish. 73.1% at the rim means you should run PnR with him all day...
    +1

    Comment: Its the old story. People tend to see someone as they first saw him. This is certainly true of how I see Big Dawg. When I first saw him play he was a scorer who had an uncanny knack for getting the ball to fall through the net an an exceptionally high rate from anywhere up to 5 - 10 feet from the basket.

    Now that he is finally getting a chance on offense it has become very clear that the NBA game is slowing down for him on offense and as he gets bigger and stronger his scoring will continue to accelerate especially if he continues to play for Triano, who just luvs Big Dawgs game. It is now just a matter of Big Dawg keeping his fouls under control. That is the only thing standing in his way from becoming a 18 or better point per game scorer.
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  14. #34
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    Arsenalist: I dunno why you dislike the guy so much. But you've got to at least keep a more open mind. Or at least, pay attention to the data. Amir does a lot of nice things on the offensive end...

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic Rookie TM Williamson's Avatar
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    Of course Amir shoots a better percentage in the paint than Amare though. Teams gear their defenses around stopping Amare at the rim because the number one option for the Suns is Amare going to the basket. Amir is generally the 4th or 5th option when he's on the floor, so when he gets the ball in the paint, he's going to face a lot less resistance than Stoudemire.

    As usage goes up, efficiency tends to go down. When you are the 4th or 5th offensive option on the floor, you're going to get a lot more open looks than when you're the 1st. Chris Andersen had a better true shooting % than Amare too, but it doesn't mean he's a comparable player.

    This isn't hate for Amir. I love the guy and hope the Raptors bring him back. But Raptors fans have a history of expecting too much from players who are incapable of fulfilling those expectations. Expecting Amir Johnson to ever be a consistent scoring option in the NBA is a perfect example of that. He doesn't have post moves, he doesn't have a jump shot, and he doesn't have a face up game. He catches and he finishes. There aren't a lot of guys with that skill set consistently putting up big scoring numbers. Can he improve on his current scoring numbers? Sure. But to be tossing out numbers like 18 ppg and Stoudemire comparisons is unfair to him, because he's simply not that kind of player.

  16. #36
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    Who brought up 18ppg? And who cares that he is a 4th or 5th option? A 4th or 5th option who can create offense (by rolling to the rim) and defend is a BARGAIN ar 4 or 5 mil a year.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Rookie TM Williamson's Avatar
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    Quote Ripp wrote: View Post
    Who brought up 18ppg? And who cares that he is a 4th or 5th option? A 4th or 5th option who can create offense (by rolling to the rim) and defend is a BARGAIN ar 4 or 5 mil a year.
    Buddahfan threw out the 18 ppg number, and said getting his fouling under control was the only thing preventing him from reaching it.

    The 4th or 5th option was in response to your points about Amir having a better percentage up close than Amare. Other teams gear their defenses towards stopping Amare at the rim, and thus, his shots around the rim are likely of a higher degree of difficulty than Amir's. If Amir were the number one option on the floor (hypothetically), he would face stiffer defense around the rim, which would make it more difficult to do his favorite thing, catch and dunk. That's why Stoudemire developed a jumper and a face up game, because catching and dunking gets a lot more difficult when you're the other teams focal point.

    So, if they were to run the PnR with him "all day", as you suggested, that true shooting percentage would fall, quite possibly significantly. Defenses would adjust, and I'm not sure Amir would be able to adjust with them given his limited skill set.

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on these young forums. Adding "minus a faceup game" or not. Just because he ran a few PnRs with Jose doesn't make him a PnR player. Amir is a garbage-man/hustler much like Reggie Evans, he is not close to being as polished as Amare to warrant any sort of comparison. Maybe their heights are similar, but that's about it.

    There's a reason Johnson ate into Evans' minutes and it has to do with them providing the same energy/hustle off the bench. Johnson happens to be a better finisher around the rim, plays within his limited skill-set and his height and lateral quicks makes him a better defender than Reggie.

    I honestly don't even think Reggie is a bad fit for the team, he's not the defender he was pre-injury two or three years ago, but he can still be a good guy to bring in off the bench. However, nobody needs two guys to play the JYD role.
    The master has spoken! hahahaha

    Im not being a kiss-ass here but im kinda on Arse's side here, and all the other Johnson-haters! hahahaha kidding. I really, really love Amir's game. Man, he gave the Raps life when they were getting their stomach's kicked in. He provided spark off the bench and his hustle plays are just admirable. He played his heart out most games and looked like he didnt flinch when asked to do the dirty work, and always did what was asked of him, plus 200%.

    Couple of factors tho, it was a contract year for him. Im not going to say he was only doing it to get a bigger contract the following year, but it does sometimes tend to seep into a player's sub-conscious. And at the same time, fighting for minutes with Evans. Hopefully if he does get signed to a contract, he wont pull a "Jamario Moon" and get comfortable with a so-so playing attitude.

    I think comparing him to Amare is a little bit over the top. Im sure if he heard that, he'd be jumping on his bed thinking people thinks of his play as that of the same caliber as amare. i mean, im pretty sure even him would be surprised of this comparison. He doesnt have that "oommpfff" that amare has (whatever that means, hahaha). amare has this raw power that allows him to take contact and still finish on the rim. he has the footwork to get away from double teams and he knows what to do with the ball either face up or back to the basket. Amir, ive seen fumble a couple of plays when faced with an aggressive defender and he certainly cant post up the likes of duncan, dhow or boozer. Again i like amir, his hardwork is incomparable, but he doesnt have the "it" factor that amare has.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed May 19th, 2010 at 02:03 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote TM Williamson wrote: View Post
    Buddahfan threw out the 18 ppg number, and said getting his fouling under control was the only thing preventing him from reaching it.

    The 4th or 5th option was in response to your points about Amir having a better percentage up close than Amare. Other teams gear their defenses towards stopping Amare at the rim, and thus, his shots around the rim are likely of a higher degree of difficulty than Amir's. If Amir were the number one option on the floor (hypothetically), he would face stiffer defense around the rim, which would make it more difficult to do his favorite thing, catch and dunk. That's why Stoudemire developed a jumper and a face up game, because catching and dunking gets a lot more difficult when you're the other teams focal point.

    So, if they were to run the PnR with him "all day", as you suggested, that true shooting percentage would fall, quite possibly significantly. Defenses would adjust, and I'm not sure Amir would be able to adjust with them given his limited skill set.
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  20. #40
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    Contract year is irrelevant...he has posted similar numbers in previous years

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