Sixers "Open" to Trading 2nd pick with Brand?

[Tim W.]

From ESPN:

A number of teams have already looked into the availability of the Philadelphia 76ers' No. 2 pick in the June 24 draft.

The asking price? Several sources said they were told that the Sixers want their trade partner to take Elton Brand off their hands. Good luck with that. With Brand set to earn $51 million over the course of the next three years, he's virtually impossible to trade.

As much as teams like the Minnesota Timberwolves, for instance, love Evan Turner, I don't think they love him that much.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ping-no-2-pick

If this is the case, and Bosh leaves, the Raptors could end up with a big trade exception they could use in a trade for Brand.

On his podcast, I believe phdsteve suggested a Calderon for Brand trade that, quite frankly, I wasn't all that keen on. If the Raptors can get the 2nd pick, however, I'd jump on it. Now, I don't think they'd take Calderon AND give up the #2 pick, so the Raptors might have to give up Jarrett Jack, instead, or maybe their 13th pick.

Would you be able to handle having the contracts of Brand, Turkoglu, Calderon and Bargnani if you got Evan Turner out of it?

Personally, I'd do it. I think Turner is going to be something special and teams don't get many opportunities to grab a player like that.

[Marz]

The following work under the salary cap:

With Jose:

Elton Brand for Jose Calderon and Reggie Evans

Elton Brand and Jason Smith for Jose Calderon, Reggie Evans, and Marcus Banks

With Jarret Jack

Elton Brand for Jarret Jack, Marcus Banks, Reggie Evans

[Mack North]

I'd be willing. At least Turner would be a cornerstone player to start building around.

I'm not too familiar with the trade exemptions, can you explain how they work?

[Tim W.]

I'd be willing. At least Turner would be a cornerstone player to start building around.

I'm not too familiar with the trade exemptions, can you explain how they work?

If Bosh signs with, say, New York and gets only Wilson Chandler back, then the Raptors would get the difference between Bosh's salary and Chandler's salary to use in a trade with another team.

If this happens, the Raptors could then trade Jarrett Jack to Philadelphia for Brand, using the trade exception of about $14 million, or something like that. Hell, the Raptors could trade their 13th pick for Brand and the 2nd pick using the trade exception.

It would be a risky move, but one that could eventually payoff bigtime.

[INFO]

I would do the trade that phdsteve suggested in his podcast, with the 2nd overall pick
it would be a fantatsic move
i wouldnt mind eating Brands contract (with the possibility of getting a return)
for a chance to get the 2nd overall pick
i really think we can leave this summer with an exciting team

[Tim W.]

The following work under the salary cap:

With Jose:

Elton Brand for Jose Calderon and Reggie Evans

Elton Brand and Jason Smith for Jose Calderon, Reggie Evans, and Marcus Banks

With Jarret Jack

Elton Brand for Jarret Jack, Marcus Banks, Reggie Evans

I'm assuming you also mean to include the 2nd pick. I don't think they'd go for Calderon and include the second pick. The savings are simply not enough.

The Jack, Banks and Evans trade for Brand nets them a good PG, as well as expiring contracts, but I think the Raptors may need to throw in the 13th pick.

Now, the Raptors want to try and entice Bosh back, the Raptors could still do this trade and have Bargnani coming off the bench and Bosh start at center. Would Brand and drafting Turner be enough make Bosh re-sign? Could that be a team that could become very competitive in the future?

[INFO]

I'd be willing. At least Turner would be a cornerstone player to start building around.

I'm not too familiar with the trade exemptions, can you explain how they work?

Wings of Derozan and Turner is something to drool over
its all speculation now, but if it were to happen it would be a good day to be a raptor fan

[INFO]

I'm assuming you also mean to include the 2nd pick. I don't think they'd go for Calderon and include the second pick. The savings are simply not enough.

The Jack, Banks and Evans trade for Brand nets them a good PG, as well as expiring contracts, but I think the Raptors may need to throw in the 13th pick.

Now, the Raptors want to try and entice Bosh back, the Raptors could still do this trade and have Bargnani coming off the bench and Bosh start at center. Would Brand and drafting Turner be enough make Bosh re-sign? Could that be a team that could become very competitive in the future?

i think that team could be competitive in the future
but i would rather build a new team (if this were to happen)
hand over the franchise to Turner, he has that level of talent, and see where it takes us

[Mack North]

Thanks for the clarification. It definitely sounds like an exciting possibility, even better if we're able to retain Bosh though.

[Raptor4Ever]

This is going to be a great summer guys. I hope BC brings his A game and make some serious noise.

I will jump on this trade if 76er go for it:

Toronto: Calderon, 13 pick
76er: Brand, 2 Pick

I honestly think 76er can not find anyone else to take Brand's contract except for Toronto.

[Hotshot]

Get er done!!

They say Evan Turner has the potential to be the next Brandon Roy.

[Tim W.]

Here's a question. Would you include DeRozan in a trade to get it done?

Calderon, DeRozan, Evans, Banks and the 13th pick for Brand and the #2?

[RAPMAN]

Here's a question. Would you include DeRozan in a trade to get it done?

Calderon, DeRozan, Evans, Banks and the 13th pick for Brand and the #2?

No...

[YKOil]

Dallas has the best shot at this deal (with Dampiers contract).

Toronto would have to use Evans, Bank, Belli & the 13th to have a shot at it.

And I would do that deal.

Another route the Raptors could go would be that of picking up an expiring in a Calderon/Turks or Bosh trade and then using that in some sort of combo with Banks et al.

[Marz]

Here's a question. Would you include DeRozan in a trade to get it done?

Calderon, DeRozan, Evans, Banks and the 13th pick for Brand and the #2?

It's one (DeRozan) or the other (13th pick). My post earlier was just to show how salaries worked out. It would most likely require a draft pick switcheroo. If they want DeRozan then we keep our 13th pick.

[Buddahfan]

70. What is the Traded Player exception?

As described in question number 69, exceptions are the mechanisms that allow teams to function above the salary cap. Any trade which results in the team ending up over the salary cap requires an exception. This is true even if the team is moving downward in salary. For example, if the salary cap is $50 million, a team has a team salary of $55 million, and they want to trade a $5 million player for a $4 million player, they still have to use an exception. Even though their team salary would be decreasing by $1 million, the fact that they would still be over the salary cap ($54 million) means that an exception is required.

The Traded Player exception is the primary means used by teams over the cap for completing trades. It allows teams to make trades that leave them over the cap, but it places several restrictions on those trades. Trades using the Traded Player exception are classified into two categories: simultaneous and non-simultaneous. As its name suggests, a simultaneous trade takes place all at once. Teams can acquire up to 125% plus $100,000 of the salaries they are trading in a simultaneous trade. For example, a team trading a $5 million player in a simultaneous trade can receive one or more players whose salary is no more than 125% of $5 million, plus $100,000, or $6.35 million in return.

A non-simultaneous trade may take up to a year to complete, but the team can only trade away one player, and can receive no more than $100,000 more than the salary they trade away. Non-simultaneous trades are described in question number 71.

In short:

* A simultaneous trade gives the team more money but less time
* A non-simultaneous trade gives the team more time but less money.

It is important to view a trade from each team's perspective separately, rather than as a single, unified transaction. This is because the same trade may be organized differently according to each team's needs. For example, a trade might be classified as a simultaneous trade from one team's perspective, but from the other team's perspective it's actually broken into two trades, one simultaneous and the other non-simultaneous (completing a trade they made months earlier).

There are several restrictions on trades (either simultaneous or non-simultaneous) which are described in other questions in this FAQ. These include Base Year Compensation (question numbers 75, 76 and 77), sign-and-trade (question numbers 78, 79, 80 and 81), including cash in trades (question number 82), trading draft picks (question number 73), trade bonuses (question numbers 85 and 86), and no-trade provisions (question number 87). In addition, performance incentives can complicate trades (question number 63).

71. What is a non-simultaneous trade?

In some cases, teams have up to one year to acquire the replacement player(s) to complete a trade. These trades are considered non-simultaneous trades. In a non-simultaneous trade, a team can only acquire up to 100% plus $100,000 of the salary it gives up (as opposed to 125% plus $100,000 in a simultaneous trade). A trade in which more than one player is traded away can only be simultaneous; non-simultaneous trades are allowed only when a single player is traded away (although teams can sometimes find ways to configure multi-player trades as multiple single-player trades which are non-simultaneous).

The combined salaries of Brand and the #2 pick in 2010-11 would be $16.0 + $3.8 or about $19.8 million. The combined salaries of Calderon and the #13 pick would be ($9.0 + $1.6) or $10.6 million which is a net add to the Raptors of $9.2 million.

The Raptors current 2010-11 cap hold is $67.0 million. The expected cap for 2010-11 is now $56.1 million. In order for the Raptors to get below the cap they would have renounce their rights to Bosh. They could still do a sign and trade with him even if they renounced their rights to him. However, they could not then resign him.

This means that BC would have to basically give up the idea of signing Bosh and keeping him in order to get below the cap

If BC renounces the rights to Bosh the Raptors cap hold drops to $49.4 including Johnson's salary of the $3.6 million remains as part of the cap hold unless the Raptors renounce their rights to him which I seriously doubt that they will do because then they can not resign him even with the MLE.

34. Can the renouncement be renounced? In other words, can a team un-renounce a player and then sign him using a Bird exception?

Only in one specific circumstance -- when they renounce one or more of their players in order to create enough cap room to sign another team's restricted free agent, but the restricted free agent's original team matches the offer sheet and keeps him. If that happens, the team can rescind the renouncement. There are a couple exceptions to this -- they can't rescind a renouncement if doing so takes them from below the salary cap to above it; or if they are above the cap and rescinding the renouncement takes them farther above the cap than they were before the renouncement.

See question number 36 for more information on restricted free agency.

So the Raptors cap hold will be at approximately $50.0 million including Johnson's salary. The trade proposed above would add $9.2 million to that and bring the Raptors salary cap hold up to $59.2 million (after having renounced the rights to Bosh).

This means that after the proposed trade with Philly unless the Raptors renounce their rights to Bosh they will be over the salary cap which will require that the difference in the salary that they are taking on is no more than 125% + $100,000 of the salary which they are giving up, which would not be the case here. Therefore I think that this trade as proposed would only work if the Raptors renounced their rights to both Bosh and Johnson.

So the Calderon and 14th pick for Brand and the 2nd pick will not work according to the cap rules unless the Raptors say buy out Evans or Banks and renounce their rights to them and they sign with another team or retire along with renouncing their rights to Bosh and Johnson.

If the Calderon plus the 14th pick for Brand and the 2nd pick won't work, all the more so replacing Calderon with Jack won't work because Jack makes less money and this trade would fall even more outside the 125% + $100,000 difference.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/toronto.htm

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q34

I want to give a shout out to Tim W and thank him for nudging me to go the CBA FAQ rules which refreshed my memory on the trading rules and even added some new knowledge as a result of putting together this post. Hat tip to Tim W.

[Tim W.]

Buddhafan,

My god, you seem to have some extra time on your hands the last couple of days. Between this and stats pulled for college PGs, you're turning into an expert.

The trades I mentioned would be after doing a sign and trade for Bosh with someone like Miami, New York or Chicago, who have cap room, so the Raptors would end up with a trade exception they could use for Brand. If Bosh doesn't leave, then obviously the salaries have to be closer. Jack, Evans, Banks and the 13th pick, for example. That would match Brand's salary close enough to do it.

It's one (DeRozan) or the other (13th pick). My post earlier was just to show how salaries worked out. It would most likely require a draft pick switcheroo. If they want DeRozan then we keep our 13th pick.

I agree. I just wanted to throw that out there to see what people thought.

A lot depends on whether or not it is true, and if it is, how desperate Philly is to unload Brand. Also, what the other bids are. That's the thing, you have to realize that other teams may want Evans, as well.

Dallas has the best shot at this deal (with Dampiers contract).

Toronto would have to use Evans, Bank, Belli & the 13th to have a shot at it.

And I would do that deal.

Another route the Raptors could go would be that of picking up an expiring in a Calderon/Turks or Bosh trade and then using that in some sort of combo with Banks et al.

It all depends on whether Dallas wants Evans. They may not if they feel they want to win, now. They also don't have any young talent to throw back at Philadelphia, which the Raptors do, as well as the 13th pick. I'm obviously a fan of Belinelli, but if they'd do that trade, I'd be thrilled.

[Buddahfan]

Buddhafan,

My god, you seem to have some extra time on your hands the last couple of days. Between this and stats pulled for college PGs, you're turning into an expert.

The trades I mentioned would be after doing a sign and trade for Bosh with someone like Miami, New York or Chicago, who have cap room, so the Raptors would end up with a trade exception they could use for Brand. If Bosh doesn't leave, then obviously the salaries have to be closer. Jack, Evans, Banks and the 13th pick, for example. That would match Brand's salary close enough to do it.



I agree. I just wanted to throw that out there to see what people thought.

A lot depends on whether or not it is true, and if it is, how desperate Philly is to unload Brand. Also, what the other bids are. That's the thing, you have to realize that other teams may want Evans, as well.


It all depends on whether Dallas wants Evans. They may not if they feel they want to win, now. They also don't have any young talent to throw back at Philadelphia, which the Raptors do, as well as the 13th pick. I'm obviously a fan of Belinelli, but if they'd do that trade, I'd be thrilled.

Tim W.

With all due respect to your high level of creativeness I'll pass on commenting on this long and winding road of what-if hypotheticals. You have created a lot more alternatives that depend on a sequence of events happening the chances of which are about as high as Bargnani being named to the NBA all defense 1st team in 2010-11 However my friend you definitely get a "A" for effort and creativity

P.S. I am retired and the majority of my time during the day time is spent on my computers primarily with sports (mostly hoops), politics and high tech because I love computers, high tech and politics and I am a hoops junkie. I watched both day #1 and day #2 of the pre-draft camp yesterday and today. Great and fun stuff.

I developed a lot of respect for Len Elmore after listening to his comments the last two days. I would love to sit down with him a few hours and talk hoops, Make that maybe the entire afternoon

[Tim W.]

Buddhafan,

I'm nothing if not creative! I don't if it's a long a winding road of hypotheticals. Just two- if Bosh is sign-and-traded and if he is not. In other words, if the Raptors get a trade exception and if they don't.

And nothing has as low a chance as Bargnani has of making the All-Defensive team next year.

By the way, what are you retired from, if you don't mind me asking?

And for a moment, I thought you were talking about Elmore Leonard. I thought you'd completely changed subjects there.