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Thread: New Rumor - Mo Williams Headed To Raptors?

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Default New Rumor - Mo Williams Headed To Raptors?

    Trade talk involving Mo Williams mostly involves Toronto. Nothing serious at this stage. Delonte West is a goner for sure. 2 minutes ago via web
    http://twitter.com/SamAmico



    In?



    @stackmack All source said is Calderon's name is the one being mentioned for Raps. But again, seems like mostly speculation right now Holly. half a minute ago via web in reply to stackmack
    http://twitter.com/SamAmico

    Out?



    No Haggle or Haggle?
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Sun Jun 6th, 2010 at 01:26 PM.
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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Mo Williams would fit better with Hedo.

    Williams is used to playing with a PF; i.e. King James.

    If this trade goes down it could mean that Hedo stays?

    Then again Williams showed that he was not a bad point guard with the Bucks when he handled the ball more than at Cleveland. So if this trade happens Hedo could still be gone.

    Interesting stuff.
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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Bob Finnan of N-H also mentions Mo-for-Calderon swap:
    http://www.news-herald.com/articles/.../nh2600140.txt
    Rumor mill

    -- If the Cavs decide to trade Mo Williams, one possible destination could be Toronto in exchange for Jose Calderon. Williams is a more dynamic scorer and Calderon is more of a distributor. Both are great free-throw shooters, but neither player is a good defender.

    Their contracts are similar in amount and length. The Raptors would like to move Calderon and swingman Hedo Turkoglu.
    http://twitter.com/SamAmico

    http://www.news-herald.com/articles/.../nh2600140.txt
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    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
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    Administrator Arsenalist's Avatar
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    This only makes sense if the Raptors plan to compete next year. I suppose trading him for Calderon makes sense since Jack/Calderon isn't working out and we need a scorer.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    This only makes sense if the Raptors plan to compete next year. I suppose trading him for Calderon makes sense since Jack/Calderon isn't working out and we need a scorer.
    I don't like this trade.

    Williams is not a much better defender than Calderon and Calderon is a better distributor with a lot fewer turnovers. Calderon is also a better shooter, though not by that much.

    The Raptors don't need more scorers or scoring. They need better defenders.

    i would go for a Calderon for Stuckey trade, even with Stuckey's occasional none heart related fainting problem. Stuckey is one of the better defending PG in the league. However since he is as much a #2 as a #1 I could see him and Jack on the court together being very effective.

    The Raptors would lose some three point shooting but Stuckey gets to the foul line at a very high rate and is an above average free throw shooter.

    However, I doubt that the Pistons would trade Stuckey for Calderon and Stuckey makes a lot less than Calderon so some money balancing would have to be included unless it became a multi-player deal.

    Bottom line it is more of a wish trade for the Raptors than anything that I think could happen.
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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Mo Williams is the better player overall, he's a good guy and so I like the trade.

    Oh and by the way...

    Mo's final three years 2010/11: $9,300,000; 2011/12: $8,500,000; 2012/13: $8,500,000

    Jose's final three years 2010/11: $9,000,000; 2011/12: $9,780,993; 2012/13: $10,561,985

    What that means is that there is also some costs savings going on here. The Raptors stand to save around $3M in salary. That may not sound like much but when you're a team that's planning to pay luxury tax it could equal savings of as much as $6M.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Mo Williams is the better player overall,
    Curious what do you base that statement on?

    1. It can't be the Bucks record when he was their PG. In his 4 years as their PG they won 30, 40, 28 and 26 games.

    2. It can't be his overall stats because Calderon has a better career offense and defense rating as well as a higher career WS/48 despite the fact that Williams had a two year bump in his by playing with Lebron.

    3. I don't believe that Williams has ever played in the Olympics. Yes the U.S.A. has been better than Spain but not by much.

    So, what do you base you straight up statement on? Just curious.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...willima01.html
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    I don't understand why we are making this trade. It is true that Mo needs the ball less and all but he is an awful defender and we really need to tie things up front when we have AB back there.

    Plus, isn't Hedo leaving anyway ?

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    K im done with calderon we've had him since hes been a rookie. The guy hasn't really improved much. Williams is in a different class. Dude got skills. BC needs to change the image of this team starting with all these useless European players. Excuse me but its usually black athletes that win championships in this day and age. Unfortunately theyre arent anymore Larry Birds.

    BTW im not racist its just a coincidence..

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Ambidextrious wrote: View Post
    K im done with calderon we've had him since hes been a rookie. The guy hasn't really improved much. Williams is in a different class. Dude got skills. BC needs to change the image of this team starting with all these useless European players. Excuse me but its usually black athletes that win championships in this day and age. Unfortunately theyre arent anymore Larry Birds.

    BTW im not racist its just a coincidence..
    That statement limits the basketball universe to America straight up.

    Fortunately basketball is played world wide and outside of America your statement does not hold water.

    Even in world competition including America, the U.S.A. does not win all the time and the competitive level is getting closer and closer.

    Kenny "the Jet" Smith said the subject and I think that there is some truth to what he is saying on the subject.

    The NBA consists mostly of athletes and to a lesser extent basketball players.
    FIBA consists mostly of basketball players and to a lesser extent athletes

    When you read the scouting reports of almost every potential NBA draft prospect they all talk about how athletic he is. They rarely talk about a prospects basketball IQ and when they do it is usually only guys who are not considered very athletic. It is almost like. Okay he is not very athletic but he has a high basketball IQ.

    The NBA is a league of athletes that coaches and general managers hope that they can make into basketball players.

    Not that that is a bad thing at all. It certainly makes for a more exciting game although not necessarily a better one.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Sun Jun 6th, 2010 at 03:45 PM.
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    Like earlier posts mentioned, no one is really winning here. It's just a change of scenario type of trade and the pros/cons of both players pretty much balance each other out.

    However, people always talk about team cohesiveness and that very rarely do you get a team that's been together for a long time. I would think familiarity and having played with each other before has some impact on performance and is an intangible characteristic. Would this trade make sense then? Is Williams, who might be a better scorer, worst distributor and same defensive ability as Calderon worth undermining the team chemistry/cohesiveness?

    Maybe if we got a better defender in return, then it would make the team better, so yes. But I'd rather keep Calderon and stick with the familiarity factor than get Williams.

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    Quote bodmon wrote: View Post
    Like earlier posts mentioned, no one is really winning here. It's just a change of scenario type of trade and the pros/cons of both players pretty much balance each other out.

    However, people always talk about team cohesiveness and that very rarely do you get a team that's been together for a long time. I would think familiarity and having played with each other before has some impact on performance and is an intangible characteristic. Would this trade make sense then? Is Williams, who might be a better scorer, worst distributor and same defensive ability as Calderon worth undermining the team chemistry/cohesiveness?

    Maybe if we got a better defender in return, then it would make the team better, so yes. But I'd rather keep Calderon and stick with the familiarity factor than get Williams.
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    I don't see the point of this trade. How much would the Raptors would improve by doing this? Not very much I'd say.

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    I've never liked Mo WIlliams. He's not a great defender, doesn't make his teammates better and his only real strength is scoring. And I really, really don't think WIlliams is a better player than Calderon. Not by a long shot. I think Cleveland would be a better team with Calderon than Williams, and I don't think Toronto would be any better with Williams.

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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Curious what do you base that statement on?

    1. It can't be the Bucks record when he was their PG. In his 4 years as their PG they won 30, 40, 28 and 26 games.

    2. It can't be his overall stats because Calderon has a better career offense and defense rating as well as a higher career WS/48 despite the fact that Williams had a two year bump in his by playing with Lebron.

    3. I don't believe that Williams has ever played in the Olympics. Yes the U.S.A. has been better than Spain but not by much.

    So, what do you base you straight up statement on? Just curious.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...willima01.html
    He's far more aggressive on offense. He's a far better 3pt shooter. He's a better defender. He's more athletic, faster on his feet.

    1. The Bucks teams were in rebuild mode. How's his record with the Cavs?
    2. Mo had a higher true shooting percentage. Actually, his defensive rating was better than Jose's (107 Mo vs. 116 Jose in 2009/10). Oh and the net between offensive rating and defensive rating is +5 for Mo compare to +3 for Jose.
    3. Mo could make the Spanish national team with his eyes closed.

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    Toronto is the loser in this deal. By a large enough margin for it to matter. The reason Cleveland wants Jose is for the better shooting (you put him beside LeBron james and watch his FG% skyrocket). The reason Toronto wants Mo is to save 3 million dollars? Forget that. If his athleticism doesn't translate into better team defense then there's no reason to make this trade.

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    I'm pretty much impartial on this one, it gives the Raps better scoring but it's defense that we need.

    Buddah- If BC could convince Dumars to take Calderon and Hedo for Prince and Stuckey, Im down. I dou t he'd bite though since the 2 didn't play so well together in TO. Wishful thinking for another forum I guess...
    Keep Calm & Chive On

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    Quote Mess wrote: View Post
    I don't see the point of this trade. How much would the Raptors would improve by doing this? Not very much I'd say.
    As bodmon said, it's a trade which has more to do with change of scenery. I don't see what purpose Calderon is serving on this team and trading him for a shot-maker isn't a losing proposition. Williams isn't the defender which we need (as Buddah said) but it's not like this will be the only move we'll make all summer. He's got a similar contract as Calderon but has a higher degree of skill and puts out a better defensive effort than Jose.

    More than anything, this is a trade which makes sense because we don't need Calderon. Mo Williams isn't anything great and just about the kind of player you'll get for Calderon in a straight swap.

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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Mo Williams would fit better with Hedo.

    Williams is used to playing with a PF; i.e. King James.

    If this trade goes down it could mean that Hedo stays?

    Then again Williams showed that he was not a bad point guard with the Bucks when he handled the ball more than at Cleveland. So if this trade happens Hedo could still be gone.

    Interesting stuff.
    no matter how many trades go down turkoglu is gone. there is no doubt in my mind.
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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    He's far more aggressive on offense. He's a far better 3pt shooter. He's a better defender. He's more athletic, faster on his feet.

    1. The Bucks teams were in rebuild mode. How's his record with the Cavs?
    2. Mo had a higher true shooting percentage. Actually, his defensive rating was better than Jose's (107 Mo vs. 116 Jose in 2009/10). Oh and the net between offensive rating and defensive rating is +5 for Mo compare to +3 for Jose.
    3. Mo could make the Spanish national team with his eyes closed.
    I don't know that being more aggressive on offense means anything positive when the Raptors had the fifth best offense. If you mean that Williams can occasionally "go off" for 30+ games, I will agree with that but when you look at the Cavs offense last season they scored 3.0 more points per 100 possessions when Williams had his ass glued to the bench.

    Whereas the Raptors scored 2.6 points more per 100 possessions when Calderon was on the court.

    On top of that the Raptors were a better offensive team than the Cavs.

    So it seems to me that Calderon has an overall more positive affect on offense and Williams has an overall more negative affect on offense.

    I have never bought the argument that says that more athletic is necessarily better. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird were not very athletic. Bill Laimbeer was about as unathletic as a NBA player could be. Yet Johnson and Bird were two of the best ever. Laimbeer wound up being a very very good player who won two NBA titles and put up some of the better career rebounding numbers.

    More athletic does not mean that a player is better as far as how they benefit or detract from the team winning. All it means is that they are more athletic.

    The list of athletic duds in the NBA or would be NBA players who were athletic is endless.

    Williams could never make the Spanish Olympic team because he is not a Spanish citizen. Even if he was you don't know that . That is just some wild blanket statement without anything to back it up.

    Williams might be a slightly better defender but not good enough to compensate for the overall negative impact he has on a team's offense like he did last season.

    Calderon had a bad year last year. I think almost all Raptors fans would agree with that. If he were to never play better in the future than he did last year then I might be willing to consider the trade but otherwise two thumbs down.

    I would rather have Calderon who is a more traditional point guard and has a career average of 8.7 assists per 36 minutes and a career assist to turnover ratio of about 4.2 than Williams who has a career average of 5.7 assists per 36 minutes and a career assist to turnover ratio of about 2.1.

    Here are the career comparisons of TS% and eFG% with Calderon's on the left

    TS%-----.584--.543

    eFG%---.543--.504

    http://www.82games.com/0910/0910TOR.HTM

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...caldejo01.html
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