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  • #16
    Trading jack would be a stupid move. Hes a leader on the team, has helped considerably with derozan and weems development and will continue to if were able to keep him on as a back up. Not to mention his salary which may be one the best in the league for the production and leadership we get. Our main priority should be trading anyone not named derozan, weems, bargnani, or jack.

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    • #17
      sleepz wrote: View Post
      I like Thaddeus.

      It's amazing to me how many fans don't want to include Demar in a deal. Did you see him play last year? Yes he has potential but he should also be coming off the bench next year, which is when he was most effective and dialed in his rookie season.
      Demars rookie season was similar to TMacs... relatively lost on both offensive and defensive sets but his raw talent still allowed him to drop 18-20 pts occasionally; this with triano admitting to not running a single play for derozan.

      He still has a lot to prove and I'm not saying he's the next tmac, but it would be a little premature to give up/trade him so soon.

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      • #18
        I'm not sure I like the comparison. McGrady even as a rookie had good handling skills and was further along on defense than DeMar is. In terms of athleticism DeMar may be on par. Not to mention we're talking T-Mac at 18 and DeMar at 20. T-Mac at 20 was posting 15PPG, 2BLK, 6.3REB and 3.3AST

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        • #19
          I like the idea of bringing in Thaddeus Young. He's 21, and he hasn't really had an opportunity to shine yet. However I don't see how trading #13 makes any sense here. He's a good prospect.

          Question then becomes is Thaddeus Young a comparable prospect to what might be available at #13. I don't really know.. I'd like to see a trade like this happen maybe DURING draft time, where BC sees the guy he wanted get taken earlier and then makes the trade. Doing it now makes no sense at all.

          Louis Williams is a tweener, and will be a bench player much like Jarret Jack is (or a starter for a bad team) for his entire career. Swapping the two is similar to that other idea of swapping Calderon and Mo Williams. It's a lateral move that doesn't really help anyone.
          Last edited by ebrian; Tue Jun 8, 2010, 03:15 PM.
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          • #20
            abstract wrote: View Post
            Demars rookie season was similar to TMacs... relatively lost on both offensive and defensive sets but his raw talent still allowed him to drop 18-20 pts occasionally; this with triano admitting to not running a single play for derozan.

            He still has a lot to prove and I'm not saying he's the next tmac, but it would be a little premature to give up/trade him so soon.
            Took the words right outta my mouth. DeRozan ain't goin' anywhere. This is the guy they wanted months before the draft, why would they make him expendable now?

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            • #21
              Tim W. wrote: View Post
              The problem with Lou Williams is he's a tweener. I don't understand how you say he's not a pure PG, but is an ideal running mate to DeRozan and Weems. If he's not a pure PG, who on earth is going to run the offense? The one thing Williams has proven is that he's not a PG.

              I do like Young, and I have no problem trading the 13th pick, but I'd rather not trade Belinelli. I know, I know, many of you don't like him, but I still think he's going to be a very good player.

              As for the trade as a whole, I do think the Raptors do end up with some talented players. I'd still like to see them get the 2nd pick, though.
              I could see where that could get confusing, but Lou avg over 4 dimes a season last year with the Princeton offense which doesn't gear towards point guards. The guy is ideal because he can keep up with Derozan, Weems and Johnson whereas Jose and Jack can't. He isn't a pure pg, but scoring pg's seems to be the new breed anyways. Weems creates his own offense and Derozan will hopefully show up to camp with a handle so I don't think there would really be a problem kick starting the offense.

              Imagine Lou and Thad were in the draft, would they not go before #13?
              I like this draft and think #13 isn't a bad spot to be, but if you can turn possibilities into reality, you do that every day of the week.

              Jack is a nice player, but he's not a starter and can't really play the two guard. Have people not watched 76er games? Lou Wiliams was a breakout star last year before he got injured. Young is a versatile 21 year old big man who can play inside and out. Both guys might not pan out, but there is much greater chance one of them does than the #13 pick.

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              • #22
                I liked Thad in his rookie year as well and his numbers in his second year were actually pretty good as his minutes increased signifcantly. I think he might have regressed cause he was injured early last year.

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                • #23
                  abstract wrote: View Post
                  Demars rookie season was similar to TMacs... relatively lost on both offensive and defensive sets but his raw talent still allowed him to drop 18-20 pts occasionally; this with triano admitting to not running a single play for derozan.

                  He still has a lot to prove and I'm not saying he's the next tmac, but it would be a little premature to give up/trade him so soon.
                  I can't make that Tmac comparison as their skill-set is different and McGrady was essentially a point forward. I don't think DeMar has shown as much potential as Tmac did. A rookie can certainly develop a lot between year one and 2 but for a 2 guard with limited ball handling and a flat jumper? I tihnk he should focus on being a good defender and rebounder with his athleticism. I would trade him before I traded Weems though.

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                  • #24
                    Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
                    Jack can not play defense either and I am not sure if he can be a useful player in a losing team.

                    I trade Jack and 13 for Lou Williams and Young. Who ever we get at 13, will not be as good as young anyway.
                    and you're basing this on what?

                    btw, that is definitely not gonna go down belinelli, jack, and the 13th for thad and lou.

                    unless we are getting gil for turkoglu. who now apparently wants to go to sacramento.
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                    • #25
                      sleepz wrote: View Post
                      I can't make that Tmac comparison as their skill-set is different and McGrady was essentially a point forward. I don't think DeMar has shown as much potential as Tmac did. A rookie can certainly develop a lot between year one and 2 but for a 2 guard with limited ball handling and a flat jumper? I tihnk he should focus on being a good defender and rebounder with his athleticism. I would trade him before I traded Weems though.
                      flat jumper? his mid range game is pretty effective even at the nba level. i agree his ball handling is limited but we haven't really seen him too much in high screen scenarios so who knows how well he can create if he actually has screens set for him at the top of the perimeter? its an entirely different dynamic especially if he has a big man that can roll towards the basket.

                      considering the raptors were totally void of an athletic wing for 3.5 years under colangelo, i dont understand how undervalued derozan is amongst the fan base. if anything, raptor fans should know that athletic wings with scoring potential dont grow on trees and are hard to come by. the fact that one of these players is young, locked in long term and willing to learn/improve, it makes no sense to even include him in a trade... unless we're getting back a stud

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                      • #26
                        When you look at Weems numbers on a more detailed level he was not really more productive on offense than DeRozan, Keep in mind that Weems is three years older than DeRozan, 24-21. So DeRozan physically has a lot more upside than Weems. DeRozan's game also probably has a lot more upside than Weems does. Just for the heck of it I plugged Johnson's numbers in on the right

                        DeRozan on Left and Weems in Center and Johnson on Right
                        -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        PER--------------12.5--------12.9------------------16.7
                        TS%--------------.554--------.533------------------.639
                        eFG%------------.502--------.517------------------.623
                        Usage%----------18.1--------18.4-----------------14.5
                        Off Rating-------110---------104-------------------124
                        OWS--------------2.0---------0.8-------------------3.4
                        WS/48-----------.066--------.044-----------------.150

                        * The Raptors need to pass Johnson the ball more. His usage rate is way too low

                        Defensive Rating - The Lower the Better

                        DeRozan 115
                        Weems 113
                        Johnson 110

                        So not much difference there either between DeRozan and Weems.

                        http://www.basketball-reference.com/...weemsso01.html

                        If I had to choose to trade one either Weems or DeRozan, I would trade Weems and not trade trade DeRozan at this point period, straight up.
                        Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Jun 8, 2010, 05:54 PM.
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                        • #27
                          abstract wrote: View Post
                          flat jumper? his mid range game is pretty effective even at the nba level. i agree his ball handling is limited but we haven't really seen him too much in high screen scenarios so who knows how well he can create if he actually has screens set for him at the top of the perimeter? its an entirely different dynamic especially if he has a big man that can roll towards the basket.

                          considering the raptors were totally void of an athletic wing for 3.5 years under colangelo, i dont understand how undervalued derozan is amongst the fan base. if anything, raptor fans should know that athletic wings with scoring potential dont grow on trees and are hard to come by. the fact that one of these players is young, locked in long term and willing to learn/improve, it makes no sense to even include him in a trade... unless we're getting back a stud
                          His jumper is flat which is why the coaching staff has had to work on his mechanics. He has a decent mid-range game but it's based more on team daring him to shoot right now than him creating a shot for himself. Don't get me wrong, I would like DD to be a solid player if they decide to keep him but if there is an opportunity to move up in the draft or get a solid young player in the league that has shown ability I would let him go. He is athletic but in the NBA today I would want my 2 guard to be a shot creator or a liquid shooter and right now he's shown me neither ability on a consistent basis. If he could develop into a top tier defender however he would be a keeper in my books.

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                          • #28
                            Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                            When you look at Weems numbers on a more detailed level he was not really more productive on offense than DeRozan, Keep in mind that Weems is three years older than DeRozan, 24-21. So DeRozan physically has a lot more upside than Weems. DeRozan's game also probably has a lot more upside than Weems does. Just for the heck of it I plugged Johnson's numbers in on the right

                            DeRozan on Left and Weems in Center and Johnson on Right
                            -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            PER--------------12.5--------12.9------------------16.7
                            TS%--------------.554--------.533------------------.639
                            eFG%------------.502--------.517------------------.623
                            Usage%----------18.1--------18.4-----------------14.5
                            Off Rating-------110---------104-------------------124
                            OWS--------------2.0---------0.8-------------------3.4
                            WS/48-----------.066--------.044-----------------.150

                            * The Raptors need to pass Johnson the ball more. His usage rate is way too low

                            Defensive Rating - The Lower the Better

                            DeRozan 115
                            Weems 113
                            Johnson 110

                            So not much difference there either between DeRozan and Weems.

                            http://www.basketball-reference.com/...weemsso01.html

                            If I had to choose to trade one either Weems or DeRozan, I would trade Weems and not trade trade DeRozan at this point period, straight up.
                            I think that a deal with DeRozan would net more because of the potential factor you pointed out. Weems is older but they both have played sparingly in the NBA thus far and I like what Weems does right now more than what Demar does. I'd like it if they both develop into good players, I just think that for a top 10 pick Demar hasn't shown all that much to make him an untouchable.

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                            • #29
                              sleepz wrote: View Post
                              I think that a deal with DeRozan would net more because of the potential factor you pointed out. Weems is older but they both have played sparingly in the NBA thus far and I like what Weems does right now more than what Demar does. I'd like it if they both develop into good players, I just think that for a top 10 pick Demar hasn't shown all that much to make him an untouchable.
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N47IpsY5soc

                              which is why he's untouchable for now

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                              • #30
                                Moon Knight wrote: View Post
                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N47IpsY5soc

                                which is why he's untouchable for now
                                He's untouchable because he can dunk? You don't have high standards, do you?
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