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Thread: Bargnani Still "Untouchable"

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Bargnani Still "Untouchable"

    I’m not surprised that we’re hearing all kinds of rumours about Raptor players. The word is everybody but Andrea Bargnani is available and one of Jarrett Jack/Jose Calderon will definitely not be back next season.
    Source: Toronto Sun

    I cannot for the life of me understand why trading Bargnani would be out of the question still. I like the guy, don't get me wrong, but if this off-season is a rebuild then dangling him out there to see what's biting wouldn't hurt. No need to pull the trigger but wouldn't it be nice to at least know?

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    Raptors Republic Rookie robito's Avatar
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    Good work Bry. As everyone here knows already, Bargnani is a guaranteed All-Star this year, right multipaul?

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    ... Please... Let's not have two Bargnani worshiping threads around here. I swear the other thread is one step behind sacrificing animals as tribute.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie ScottBaird's Avatar
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    I'm all for dangling him out there in the hopes of finding an upgrade, but I DO think that he'll produce a lot better from the PF spot, and that we might get a glimpse of that next season when we are lacking in CB4-ness.

    Scott.
    Don't hate me because I'm an optimist.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    I think the logic is that BC wants someone to build around that's gonna be here for a while. With Bosh likely out the door and DeRozen still being to young for anyone to get a feel on, he has decided that Bargs is going to be the guy, at least for this coming season. He needs to start rebuilding this team somewhere and using a guy who is both our former number one pick and who is not opposed to playing in "Small market Toronto" seems like a great place to start. If he trades everyone, we'll suddenly have no one that we're trying to complement and trying to build a team with no player or players to base your strategy is not the easiest thing in the world.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    Raptors Republic Rookie robito's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    I think the logic is that BC wants someone to build around that's gonna be here for a while. With Bosh likely out the door and DeRozen still being to young for anyone to get a feel on, he has decided that Bargs is going to be the guy, at least for this coming season. He needs to start rebuilding this team somewhere and using a guy who is both our former number one pick and who is not opposed to playing in "Small market Toronto" seems like a great place to start. If he trades everyone, we'll suddenly have no one that we're trying to complement and trying to build a team with no player or players to base your strategy is not the easiest thing in the world.
    I understand what you're saying and I do feel that you make a very valid point, it's definitely easier to build around a known entity and to complement that player than to build around an unknown entity. With that said however, what happens when the player you're looking to build around isn't exceptional, nor does he possess the ability to be exceptional. I'm not saying that the book is out on Bargnani, nor am I saying that he's a bad player. All I'm saying is that he has flaws, and I'm not sure if these are things that can be corrected. Passion, fire, drive...These are intrinsic qualities, they cannot be learned. I'm not sure if Bargnani possesses the attributes that are ideal for building a franchise around.

    I think that Bargnani could be a nice piece, with continued development he could possibly develop into one of the better players in the league at his position. But to build around him, I'm not so sure it's ideal. I get what you're saying about Toronto, that players - for one reason or another - don't want to come here. That argument has bearing to some degree. But I think that if we were to field a competitive, competent basketball team, we wouldn't have those problems. All I want is for Colangelo to put together the best young talent that he can this off-season so we can get this rebuild rolling...The Chris Bosh era is over, we tried, but we were ultimately unsuccessful. It's time to re-tool, and if that means parting with your former no. 1 pick, I think that's something that Bryan has got to consider.

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    I'm not saying a word. Oh, I guess I just did.

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    What happened to the team ball? I'm sick and tired of that "franchise player", "building around somebody", etc.
    bull**. It's running the league. Just look in what circus the pending free agency is turning.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote robito wrote: View Post
    I understand what you're saying and I do feel that you make a very valid point, it's definitely easier to build around a known entity and to complement that player than to build around an unknown entity. With that said however, what happens when the player you're looking to build around isn't exceptional, nor does he possess the ability to be exceptional. I'm not saying that the book is out on Bargnani, nor am I saying that he's a bad player. All I'm saying is that he has flaws, and I'm not sure if these are things that can be corrected. Passion, fire, drive...These are intrinsic qualities, they cannot be learned. I'm not sure if Bargnani possesses the attributes that are ideal for building a franchise around.

    I think that Bargnani could be a nice piece, with continued development he could possibly develop into one of the better players in the league at his position. But to build around him, I'm not so sure it's ideal. I get what you're saying about Toronto, that players - for one reason or another - don't want to come here. That argument has bearing to some degree. But I think that if we were to field a competitive, competent basketball team, we wouldn't have those problems. All I want is for Colangelo to put together the best young talent that he can this off-season so we can get this rebuild rolling...The Chris Bosh era is over, we tried, but we were ultimately unsuccessful. It's time to re-tool, and if that means parting with your former no. 1 pick, I think that's something that Bryan has got to consider.
    I think Bargs COULD be the guy, but you could be right, his lack of passion on the court could will hurt his ability to lead plus their is no guarantee he will become the player we invision (20/8). I guess the issue is IF Bargs can be that guy and we trade him for some middle (we will not get an all star or borderline guy back for him) piece and he goes somewhere and starts playing at a very high level we will regret it. I am of the opinion that he should be given a chance to show what he can do as the primary option. It shouldn't hurt his trade value if he is unsuccessful at it since I don't think he's seen as an all-star around the league, and if he is successful we're in business for the next 5 years. Sort of like hedging your bet.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    Raptors Republic Starter cornbreadd's Avatar
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    Problem is, the potential that Bargs has and the player he could turn out to be would be significantly better than anything that BC would get in a trade for him. There's not much point in buying high and selling low

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    Quote cornbreadd wrote: View Post
    Problem is, the potential that Bargs has and the player he could turn out to be would be significantly better than anything that BC would get in a trade for him. There's not much point in buying high and selling low
    I see it differently. I see Bargnani's value at it's height right now because he is seen as possibly still having more potential. If next year he plateaus, as I believe he will, his trade value will decrease. I think this is the perfect time to trade him, since I don't think he will be worth more than he is right this moment.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie bigmanshaq's Avatar
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    I think Colangelo has to make Bargnani untouchable, otherwise our whole roster is trade assets.
    CB4 was untouchable, now he might leave. Derozan's too young to be deemed franchise player. JJ not it, neither is Calderon. Turk is "untouchable" I guess, but in a bad contract type of way.
    If he doesn't make Barg "untradeable", it would look like BC doesn't know what direction the franchise is headed, which player he will built upon, potential FA's coming in doesn't who they will play with.
    But I thik Colangelo is smart enough that he will include Barg in a trade (depsite his untouchable status), if it gets us a great player in return.

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    How about this plan!!!


    Trade Hedo to Orlando for Gortat and Matt Barnes in a sign and trade.
    Maybe they want Rasho for a super cheap backup included in the deal
    Orlando does this because Gortat wants more minutes they dont need to pay Dwights backup 6.5 mil and this wouldgive them a potent offensive attack with Boston gettting older they become the favorite pending where all the FA move

    Jammer Arroyo
    Vince JJ Redick
    Hedo Pietrus
    Rahsard Bass
    Howard Maybe Rasho

    Next trade-

    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=2chevk4

    OK OK i know this sounds crazy but allow me to explain

    New Orleans does this in a heartbeat they get to shed bad contracts + backup PG for Monta Ellis, with him and Paul dynamite backcourt. James johnson contract is not guranteed so they can waive him and save cash as well

    Toronto does this to get a great young PG and shed Jose with having to take Posey bad contract back

    Miami does this because they dont want Beasley and now can focus on front court help to go along with Jose/ Wade and tons of cap space.

    Goldenstate losses Ellis who they still have some bitterness toward and are worried about him and Steph Curry playing together long term and land Beasley a young PF who fits there system great maybe they need the Raps 13th pick to make this work.

    The Raps then would have

    Collison/Jack/Banks
    Derozan/Weems/Belli
    Barnes/Posey/
    Bosh/Evans
    Andrea/Gortat

    And.......still might have our 13th pick and two expiring contracts in Banks and Evans that could be moved before or during the season....And would still have the MLE exception to use on Amir or someone else...

    Long shot ofcourse but the possibilities are out there!!!!

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Source: Toronto Sun

    I cannot for the life of me understand why trading Bargnani would be out of the question still. I like the guy, don't get me wrong, but if this off-season is a rebuild then dangling him out there to see what's biting wouldn't hurt. No need to pull the trigger but wouldn't it be nice to at least know?
    "Dangling him out there" for what? Do you think LA will throw Kobe in a deal for Bargnani? I don't understand why Raptors fans are so eager to get rid of everybody, like is not enough that the star players move on by themselves.

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    According to Doug Smith's blog ... no one is untouchable on the Raptors, not even Bargnani.

    Smith answered a question (is Andrea untouchable?) with this ... "No one’s “untouchable” in the right circumstances on this team; that’s a myth perpetuated by fans who like to read more into things than are there"

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I see it differently. I see Bargnani's value at it's height right now because he is seen as possibly still having more potential. If next year he plateaus, as I believe he will, his trade value will decrease. I think this is the perfect time to trade him, since I don't think he will be worth more than he is right this moment.
    The trick is who do you trade for? Last summer, BC went for "the best FA available" (Hedo) and it turned out to be the worst deal ever for Raptors. And your suggestion that Andrea will regress is not sustainable ... Andrea improved his skills every year (second year may be an exception, but he switched position and he was injured). Andrea will became a better player once he will be the option number one. It will take some time to adjust at double team, but I think that his confidence will go higher.

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    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    The trick is who do you trade for? Last summer, BC went for "the best FA available" (Hedo) and it turned out to be the worst deal ever for Raptors. And your suggestion that Andrea will regress is not sustainable ... Andrea improved his skills every year (second year may be an exception, but he switched position and he was injured). Andrea will became a better player once he will be the option number one. It will take some time to adjust at double team, but I think that his confidence will go higher.
    Bargnani needs Bosh demanding double teams to be effective. He knows it and we saw how he got shut down when Bosh was out. I agree with Tim I think Bargs has a subpar season next year, he needs a player who commands doubles because he cant create for himself. He's gonna be the same player three years from now showing flashes of potential but still settling for threes but by then hell be 28 and his trade value will be much lower. I really believe that Bosh wants Bargnani gone, so its a choice we go hard and trade Bargnani for a SF who can score, rebound and defend.

    Our number option should be convincing Bosh to stay on this team because if he does and Derozan becomes special in 3 seasons we would have a poor mans Kobe and Pau.

    To Philly: Jack, Bargs, Banks, 13th pick
    To Toronto: Williams, Iguodala

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    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote ScottBaird wrote: View Post
    I'm all for dangling him out there in the hopes of finding an upgrade, but I DO think that he'll produce a lot better from the PF spot, and that we might get a glimpse of that next season when we are lacking in CB4-ness.

    Scott.
    i'm sorry but i really don't see how changing from center to pf is going to make a massive improvement with bosh gone he might be better regardless of him changing positions because there is all that slack to pick up.
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

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    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    The trick is who do you trade for? Last summer, BC went for "the best FA available" (Hedo) and it turned out to be the worst deal ever for Raptors. And your suggestion that Andrea will regress is not sustainable ... Andrea improved his skills every year (second year may be an exception, but he switched position and he was injured). Andrea will became a better player once he will be the option number one. It will take some time to adjust at double team, but I think that his confidence will go higher.
    The fact is that Bargnani has barely improved hi stats, especially from last season this this one. The biggest difference is that he's gotten more minutes. And as for switching position, he had a brief foray as a SF last year when O'Neal was in Toronto, but has pretty much played center the entire time he's been in Toronto.

    Your theory that Bargnani will be a better player once he becomes the number one option is an opinion, and not based on fact. There are several problems. The first is that Bargnani certainly didn't excel when Bosh went out this year. In fact, his stats went down, and most of those games were against under .500 teams.

    Secondly, Bargnani simply doesn't have a "go to" move. How is he going to score? Right now, he scores most of his points off of double teams, kickouts or fast breaks. He's never had the responsibility of being given the ball and asked to score on even a semi-regular basis and the reason is because he doesn't create.

    Bargnani certainly COULD average 25 ppg, as some suggest, but how many shots will it take for him to do that and how successful will the Raptors be with him doing that? Monta Ellis scored 25 ppg, but he took a league high 22 shots to do it. And Golden State won 26 games despite actually having half decent talent on the team.

    Tony Campbell is my favourite example of this, though. He was a bit player on Detroit and the Lakers until he was picked up by Minnesota in the expansion draft. The next year, if you looked solely at his stats, he looked great. He averaged 23 ppg, on .457 shooting, got to the line 6.7 times a game, grabbed 5.5 rpg from the SF position and dished out 2.7 apg. Those look like All-Star level numbers, but a closer look would have told a different story. Campbell was only to achieve those numbers because Minnesota was such a talentless team and the offense was basically geared to getting him points. They won 22 games that year, and Campbell was traded two years later for a second round pick and never even averaged double digits again after that.

    Now I'm not saying Bargnani is like Campbell, but the fact is just because a player CAN average certain numbers, doesn't mean he's an All-Star nor does it mean it is the best thing for the team.

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    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    The trick is who do you trade for?
    Not to self promote, but I'll be writing a post on my blog about this next week (hopefully).

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