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Thread: Bargnani Still "Untouchable"

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    Raptors Republic Rookie ScottBaird's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    i'm sorry but i really don't see how changing from center to pf is going to make a massive improvement with bosh gone he might be better regardless of him changing positions because there is all that slack to pick up.
    When Bosh was injured Bargnani didn't pick up any slack at all. In fact, the team suffered, and it's because Bargnani kept playing the Center position, and we had other guys filling in for Bosh.

    Bargnani is a PF, and not a center... its as simple as that. Being able to play that position, not having to guard centers as much and going up against PFs in the offense should equate to better productivity and stats from Andrea. He has a height advantage against most PFs in the league, which he has yet to exploit much.

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    Quote ScottBaird wrote: View Post
    When Bosh was injured Bargnani didn't pick up any slack at all. In fact, the team suffered, and it's because Bargnani kept playing the Center position, and we had other guys filling in for Bosh.

    Bargnani is a PF, and not a center... its as simple as that. Being able to play that position, not having to guard centers as much and going up against PFs in the offense should equate to better productivity and stats from Andrea. He has a height advantage against most PFs in the league, which he has yet to exploit much.

    Scott.
    I've never once read a reasonable explanation of why Bargnani is a 4 and not a 5. On defense, he plays centers better because he's better guarding the post instead of the perimeter. Faster PFs cause him problems. On offense, it's better for him to be guarded by centers because he can draw them out and use his quickness. He's never shown an ability to punish smaller players in the post, so he really wouldn't have that much advantage because of his height. And quicker PFs would be able to guard him on the perimeter much easier than a center.

    Besides, most of the time Bargnani was on the court with Bosh, he WAS often being defended by PFs because Bosh played closer to the basket. How is he going to be more productive? Really, this argument makes very little sense.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I've never once read a reasonable explanation of why Bargnani is a 4 and not a 5. On defense, he plays centers better because he's better guarding the post instead of the perimeter. Faster PFs cause him problems. On offense, it's better for him to be guarded by centers because he can draw them out and use his quickness. He's never shown an ability to punish smaller players in the post, so he really wouldn't have that much advantage because of his height. And quicker PFs would be able to guard him on the perimeter much easier than a center.

    Besides, most of the time Bargnani was on the court with Bosh, he WAS often being defended by PFs because Bosh played closer to the basket. How is he going to be more productive? Really, this argument makes very little sense.
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    Bargnani is a spot up shooter always has been always will be imo of course but im just taking this from what ive seen so far hes shown flashes of driving to the basket wooow and some post play against guys 5 inches shorter than him but fact is you cant build your team around a spot up shooter u need a guy who can create his own shot and win games in the 4th quarter cuz thats the difference between winners and losers.. teams that can close out games.

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    Quote dn66 wrote: View Post
    What happened to the team ball? I'm sick and tired of that "franchise player", "building around somebody", etc.
    bull**. It's running the league. Just look in what circus the pending free agency is turning.
    You coudn't of said it better. We don't need to build around one person. We need to build around 5. Bargnani is a 3rd option, Bosh is a 2nd Option. Toronto has been missing a first option since Vince Carter left. If we can trade turkoglu and our draft pick for a legit swingman, we're right back in the mix, no need to rebuild. And I don't know why everyone keeps saying Bosh is leaving. If people watched the raptors and their interviews throughout the year, Bosh has always said he thinks he's good enough to be the main guy, and the only team dumb enough to make him the main guy is Toronto. EVERYWHERE else he is a number 2 option!

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    I think many people see Bargnani as a stretch 4, because there are many players in the league who have a comparabale style of play like Dirk or Jamison. Also he isn't the defensive force many teams would like to have at the center spot. As mentioned he might be more comfortable at the 5, but some parts of his game(strength, shooting, defense) are more like a forward.

    The most important point to me is: Andrea has to step up his game. Doesn't matter which position he's playing, but he has to live up to the potential the raptors saw when they drafted him.

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    Quote jjiio wrote: View Post
    I think many people see Bargnani as a stretch 4, because there are many players in the league who have a comparabale style of play like Dirk or Jamison. Also he isn't the defensive force many teams would like to have at the center spot. As mentioned he might be more comfortable at the 5, but some parts of his game(strength, shooting, defense) are more like a forward.

    The most important point to me is: Andrea has to step up his game. Doesn't matter which position he's playing, but he has to live up to the potential the raptors saw when they drafted him.
    Too many people look at what a guy does on offense and then classify him. 20 years ago, it was relatively unheard of to have a PF do anything but score in the paint and rebound. Now, you've got PFs like Dirk who can shoot the three. Really, it doesn't matter if your center shoots threes like Okur or Channing, or scores inside, like Howard or Bynum. Nowadays, what each position does is so varied the best way to classify someone is to see what position he is able to defend the best. Bargnani defends other centers best because of his length and because he's not as good defending quicker PFs out on the perimeter.

    This whole argument that he would be more productive playing at the 4 has absolutely no basis in fact to it. David Lee is a perfect example. Does anyone really think that Lee would have been more productive on the offensive end if he had played PF all season, instead of center? He only struggled on the defensive end because he played center, and he wasn't a good defensive player even at PF. On the offensive end, his quickness over most centers was an advantage, just as Bargnani's quickness and ability to hit the three is an advantage over slower centers.

  8. #28
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    Quote FromTOtoVAN wrote: View Post
    Bargnani needs Bosh demanding double teams to be effective. He knows it and we saw how he got shut down when Bosh was out. I agree with Tim I think Bargs has a subpar season next year, he needs a player who commands doubles because he cant create for himself. He's gonna be the same player three years from now showing flashes of potential but still settling for threes but by then hell be 28 and his trade value will be much lower. I really believe that Bosh wants Bargnani gone, so its a choice we go hard and trade Bargnani for a SF who can score, rebound and defend.

    Our number option should be convincing Bosh to stay on this team because if he does and Derozan becomes special in 3 seasons we would have a poor mans Kobe and Pau.

    To Philly: Jack, Bargs, Banks, 13th pick
    To Toronto: Williams, Iguodala
    Well, the discussion assumed that Bosh is as good as gone and Andrea will became the number one option. Anyway, I do agree Andrea needs players around him to stretch the floor, but isn't this valid for any other players? Bosh, as good as is, couldn't do anything because of the lack of supporting cast. Kevin Garnett did nothing in Minnesota, just to shine once in Boston.
    So, if Bosh leaves and we get back a good player, let's say Bynum, thenBynum is going to be a force in the paint and Andrea is still going to do his thing from the three point line or drive to the basket. Yes, I know he failed to raise to the bar when CB4 was down, but so did the rest of the team and even when CB4 was back. You really can't blame only Andrea for the total team meltdown.
    Also, you have to be realistic, you need players that love to play for Raptors, not players that uses Toronto just as a step to the next gig. Andrea signed a long contract and he didn't demand things from management (i.e. Vince ) or stop playing ( Hedon't).

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    just taking a break sacrificing a goat on mount olympus screaming 'viva italia' and saw this most excellent post...

    apollo, u r spot on man. i dont see any harm in seeing what bargs' market value is, im sure bc has been turning down other gms all year as well.

    right now bargs is our best player, like it or not, and is a bona fide all star (ok i'll stop lol) i cant help but wonder how the season would have ended if LA accepted the bosh trade at all star break shifting bargs to the 4 and busted ass bynum to the five. u never know..that is of course until next yr maybe

  10. #30
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    The fact is that Bargnani has barely improved hi stats, especially from last season this this one. The biggest difference is that he's gotten more minutes. And as for switching position, he had a brief foray as a SF last year when O'Neal was in Toronto, but has pretty much played center the entire time he's been in Toronto.

    Your theory that Bargnani will be a better player once he becomes the number one option is an opinion, and not based on fact. There are several problems. The first is that Bargnani certainly didn't excel when Bosh went out this year. In fact, his stats went down, and most of those games were against under .500 teams.

    Secondly, Bargnani simply doesn't have a "go to" move. How is he going to score? Right now, he scores most of his points off of double teams, kickouts or fast breaks. He's never had the responsibility of being given the ball and asked to score on even a semi-regular basis and the reason is because he doesn't create.

    Bargnani certainly COULD average 25 ppg, as some suggest, but how many shots will it take for him to do that and how successful will the Raptors be with him doing that? Monta Ellis scored 25 ppg, but he took a league high 22 shots to do it. And Golden State won 26 games despite actually having half decent talent on the team.

    Tony Campbell is my favourite example of this, though. He was a bit player on Detroit and the Lakers until he was picked up by Minnesota in the expansion draft. The next year, if you looked solely at his stats, he looked great. He averaged 23 ppg, on .457 shooting, got to the line 6.7 times a game, grabbed 5.5 rpg from the SF position and dished out 2.7 apg. Those look like All-Star level numbers, but a closer look would have told a different story. Campbell was only to achieve those numbers because Minnesota was such a talentless team and the offense was basically geared to getting him points. They won 22 games that year, and Campbell was traded two years later for a second round pick and never even averaged double digits again after that.

    Now I'm not saying Bargnani is like Campbell, but the fact is just because a player CAN average certain numbers, doesn't mean he's an All-Star nor does it mean it is the best thing for the team.
    I am not sure I mentioned stats in my initial post, but I when I said Andrea improved, I didn't mean necessary stats. Andrea started to do especially things that don't show up in stats: his one-by-one defensive game, blocks&altering opposite player game in crunch time.
    What people don't understand is that a C or PF can't be a consistent game closer. CB4 is a failure from this perspective as well. You need a SG or SF to close the game, something that Raptors misses since Vince left. That's why fans looked up to CB4 to be the one who closes games, but the reality is CB4 is not Wade/Kobe/LeBron/Pierce/Carmelo. CB4 or Howard are the type of players that would do the heavy lifting during the game, but when the time came to close the game, that's a Kobe or a Wade or a Paul Pierce or a LeBron. The same goes for Andrea, he is a C or PF, and you will never use his consistently as a "go to" guy. Either Andrea or Chris needs a slasher SG/SF to play along with. And to have a contender, you need to cover all your basis anyway, you can't relay only on a couple of guys. Andrea fits the bill to be one of the 5 guys to start the game. His contract is manageable ...

  11. #31
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I've never once read a reasonable explanation of why Bargnani is a 4 and not a 5. On defense, he plays centers better because he's better guarding the post instead of the perimeter. Faster PFs cause him problems. On offense, it's better for him to be guarded by centers because he can draw them out and use his quickness. He's never shown an ability to punish smaller players in the post, so he really wouldn't have that much advantage because of his height. And quicker PFs would be able to guard him on the perimeter much easier than a center.

    Besides, most of the time Bargnani was on the court with Bosh, he WAS often being defended by PFs because Bosh played closer to the basket. How is he going to be more productive? Really, this argument makes very little sense.
    Very smart post. While most people would seem to identify Bargnani's strengths and weaknesses well enough, these same people simply don't understand how they relate to specific matchups on the court. Bargnani's best position, as of this moment, is at Centre, for all the reasons you mentioned above.

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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    Very smart post. While most people would seem to identify Bargnani's strengths and weaknesses well enough, these same people simply don't understand how they relate to specific matchups on the court. Bargnani's best position, as of this moment, is at Centre, for all the reasons you mentioned above.
    There is one small flaw in your&tim "smart" theory: using a Center like Andrea and a PF like CB4 makes your team a jump shooting team, with nobody able to handle the paint in either sides. When the ball falls, you are a winning team scoring in bunches; when not hot on jumpers, you are just a horrible team. The problem is, just before the playoff and during the playoff, teams are starting to tight the defense and the jump shooting teams have hard time to keep up.

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    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    There is one small flaw in your&tim "smart" theory: using a Center like Andrea and a PF like CB4 makes your team a jump shooting team, with nobody able to handle the paint in either sides. When the ball falls, you are a winning team scoring in bunches; when not hot on jumpers, you are just a horrible team. The problem is, just before the playoff and during the playoff, teams are starting to tight the defense and the jump shooting teams have hard time to keep up.
    I think offense is the least of this team's worries. Lets fix the defense before we even start worrying about other teams shutting down the league's 5th best offense in crunch time.

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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    I think offense is the least of this team's worries. Lets fix the defense before we even start worrying about other teams shutting down the league's 5th best offense in crunch time.
    What do you think it happened after All-Star break? Between beginning of December and All-Star break, even the defense was quite honest, after that we witness a total meltdown because we didn't had inside presence and other teams could more easily close on our shooters.

    Also, what happened a couple of times when CB4 took Raptors to playoffs? Without a either SG or SF capable to create his own shot, there is no way Raptors will have any success. Maybe DeRozan will develop in one, but is going to take time and let's hope he won't bail out, as well.
    Last edited by insight_tor; Mon Jun 14th, 2010 at 09:48 AM.

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    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    What do you think it happened after All-Star break? Between beginning of December and All-Star break, even the defense was quite honest, after that we witness a total meltdown because we didn't had inside presence and other teams could more easily close on our shooters.
    What do I think happened? I think the team's strength of schedule got substantially easier. It's easy to look good when you're beating up on mostly sub .500 teams for a long stretch.

    But since when do you judge a team based on a small stretch of games anyway? The entire regular season is barely statistically significant, let alone a small handful of games. The fact is Toronto were 5th in the entire league offensively and 30th defensively. Get your priorities straight.

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    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    There is one small flaw in your&tim "smart" theory: using a Center like Andrea and a PF like CB4 makes your team a jump shooting team, with nobody able to handle the paint in either sides. When the ball falls, you are a winning team scoring in bunches; when not hot on jumpers, you are just a horrible team. The problem is, just before the playoff and during the playoff, teams are starting to tight the defense and the jump shooting teams have hard time to keep up.
    I'm not sure what theory you're talking about. I've never, ever, ever once said that Bosh and Bargnani were a good pairing. In fact I've repeatedly said the opposite. I've often said that Bosh needs someone who is able to score inside more, and would have liked to have seen him play with Johnson more. I've also argued that when O'Neal was with the Raptors, they actually worked fairly well together, it was the rest of the team around them that failed.

    My argument is that Bargnani is more of a center, than a PF. The argument has nothing to do with who they are paired with. Bargnani obviously needs to be paired with a PF that plays inside, just as Bosh needs to be paired with a center who plays inside.

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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    What do I think happened? I think the team's strength of schedule got substantially easier. It's easy to look good when you're beating up on mostly sub .500 teams for a long stretch.

    But since when do you judge a team based on a small stretch of games anyway? The entire regular season is barely statistically significant, let alone a small handful of games. The fact is Toronto were 5th in the entire league offensively and 30th defensively. Get your priorities straight.

    You win the game if you score more points than the opponent. And please get your facts straight, Raptors beat Dallas and Lakers and few other good teams as well during that stretch which was not small. Going back to how "smart" is to play Andrea at Center, my point was that with Andrea at Center, Raptors won't be able to improve drastically the defense. Even though Raptors were fifth offensively, still they weren't even able to make the playoffs because the lack of toughness ... I think is better to have a mean Center ( i.e. Hendricks - not necessary Howard) and let Andrea play PF. I don't understand why people keeps saying Andrea can't defend PFs, even though I could see some mismatches which will give Andrea hard times, I think Andrea can stand up against most of the PFs. Andrea did a much better job against Garnett than CB4 ever did.

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    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    You win the game if you score more points than the opponent. And please get your facts straight, Raptors beat Dallas and Lakers and few other good teams as well during that stretch which was not small. Going back to how "smart" is to play Andrea at Center, my point was that with Andrea at Center, Raptors won't be able to improve drastically the defense. Even though Raptors were fifth offensively, still they weren't even able to make the playoffs because the lack of toughness ... I think is better to have a mean Center ( i.e. Hendricks - not necessary Howard) and let Andrea play PF. I don't understand why people keeps saying Andrea can't defend PFs, even though I could see some mismatches which will give Andrea hard times, I think Andrea can stand up against most of the PFs. Andrea did a much better job against Garnett than CB4 ever did.
    You're still not getting it.

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    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    You win the game if you score more points than the opponent. And please get your facts straight, Raptors beat Dallas and Lakers and few other good teams as well during that stretch which was not small. Going back to how "smart" is to play Andrea at Center, my point was that with Andrea at Center, Raptors won't be able to improve drastically the defense. Even though Raptors were fifth offensively, still they weren't even able to make the playoffs because the lack of toughness ... I think is better to have a mean Center ( i.e. Hendricks - not necessary Howard) and let Andrea play PF. I don't understand why people keeps saying Andrea can't defend PFs, even though I could see some mismatches which will give Andrea hard times, I think Andrea can stand up against most of the PFs. Andrea did a much better job against Garnett than CB4 ever did.
    No one is debating that Bargnani needs to be paired with a great defender, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a center. There have been loads of PFs who were anchors on defense over the years. Garnett is a perfect example. Josh Smith is another one.

    And Bargnani played Garnett better than Bosh because they are about the same height. Garnett and Bargnani are both over 7 feet. Garnett has a height advantage over almost all the other PFs, but he also has quick feet that allow him to defend on the perimeter.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    No one is debating that Bargnani needs to be paired with a great defender, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a center. There have been loads of PFs who were anchors on defense over the years. Garnett is a perfect example. Josh Smith is another one.

    And Bargnani played Garnett better than Bosh because they are about the same height. Garnett and Bargnani are both over 7 feet. Garnett has a height advantage over almost all the other PFs, but he also has quick feet that allow him to defend on the perimeter.
    Bargs plays every PF/C in the league better than Bosh. Bosh's attempt at D was pitiful at best on the other bigs in this league. Even more telling was in his post game scrums when he would throw Bargs under the bus.

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