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Thread: Bosh Wants to Be "The Man". Can He Realistically Win a Title Being the #1 Option?

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    Raptors Republic Rookie moe_shuttlesworth's Avatar
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    Default Bosh Wants to Be "The Man". Can He Realistically Win a Title Being the #1 Option?



    VIDEO OF BOSH SAYING HE ONLY WANTS TO BE THE MAN OF A TEAM, NOT A SECOND BANANA,

    CAN BOSH REALLY TAKE A TEAM TO THE PROMISE LAND LIKE DUNCAN OR SHAQ??

    IN MY OPINION I THINK BOSH WILL STAY IN T.O., BECAUSE I DONT KNOW ANY OTHER TEAM HE WOULD GO TO AND BECOME THE MAIN GUY .

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    he's an average first banana ,
    he needs lots of help

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    Raptors Republic Rookie bigmanshaq's Avatar
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    At the moment he's not, he's can't even bring a team to the playoff (much less win a title) being the #1 options. To win a title takes more than just a great player, Jordan needed pippen, Shaq needed Kobe, Duncan have D-rob, then he had Manu and parker. Bosh's have Bargnani and Calderon.

    once you have that side-kick, you also need the right coach to bring everyone on the same page, Coach who knows how to win play-off series. Lakers have Phil, Spurs have pop, Utah have Jerry sloan, Celtics got Doc, and We have Jay Triano (who's still learning)

    I personally don't like the idea of having one superstar and teams rely on him heavily to function every night.
    I really enjoyed the Piston of '04 and the way their team is built, you don't have a clear cut #1 option, they work as a team, Chauncey gets them going on the offensive end, and big Ben takes the lead on the defensive end. They won with hard-nose defense, without having a superstar to be responsible for everything on the court, and I would like to see the raptors follow the blue print of the '04 pistons.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    I think Bosh can be the number one guy on a contender but he need to change a lot of his game. There are three things that would help get him there.

    1. He needs to become one of the best defenders in the league. The power forwards who have won titles as the number won guy in the last few years (KG and Duncan) were both defensive stalwarts and great team guys.

    2. He needs to pass more and better. Bosh has never averaged more than 2.6 assists a game and while some will argue that maybe his teams have been weak, there is no reason that a guy who takes that many double teams should be getting 5 assists per game just off kick outs. Since his Rookie year, Kevin Garnett has averaged less 2.6 assists only once, and that was last year. During his good years in Minni, Garnett consistently averaged 5-6 assists per game, and you can't tell me that some of those teams weren't worse than the teams Bosh has played with. Duncan's assist numbers are lower than Garnett's, but then Duncan plays more inside than either Bosh or Garnett.

    3. He needs to show leadership. Bosh has to be the guy who is stepping up in interviews and saying, "this one is on me, I need to play better" or calling team huddles and pumping guys up. He doesn't have to be the king of crazy leader that Kobe and Garnett are but he has to have the respect of the other guys. I'd love to see him kind of be like Duncan in that respect, quiet but obviously the teams heart and sole.

    There are a few other things that would help like him being more aggressive getting into the paint and working closer to the basket, but those three are the main ones. One of the main reasons I don't think Bosh should be kept is I don't think he'll ever develop those qualities I listed above and if he doesn't he'll never be the number one guy on any contending team. Leadership, Teamwork, and ball movement: the three most important aspects of the game and the three CB4 desperately needs.
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    Raptors Republic Starter RikkJames's Avatar
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    @hateslosing...
    Ur right on with your post, and I too wonder if he'll ever get to that point, and sustain it over a season? Thats what all-star max players do.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Duncan and Shaq had big time help during their runs for Championships. Drop Bosh down in the Spurs system or place him next to Kobe or Wade and you would see some nice results. Hard to say championship but it's also hard to discredit the idea as well.

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    The NBA's rules and their enforcement makes frontcourt players less important than they were in the past. A player like Olajuwon or Kareem would not be able to dominate today nearly as much because of how the rules changed to protect ball-handlers. We see now that the most successful teams tend to have bullish players in the frontcourt, like Kendrick Perkins, who is a pure example (no identifiable basketball skills -- cannot dribble, shoot, pass, or function as much of anything except a roadblock).

    The winning teams are dominated by ball-handlers like KB24, Lebron, Rondo, Nash, Wade etc. The Magic are an example of a team that has put its eggs in the wrong basket in that they have a bullish player, Superman, but not a dominant ball-handler.

    If the league were to change its rules to make Perkins-style defense illegal, such players would be extraneous and skilled big men -- probably Eurotrash players -- would be in greater demand. That is how Euroleague games are called, and the NBA already changed the rules for ball-handlers, so I can see it happening for the frontcourt players too, but until and unless it does, a team would be better suited to go for defense and rebounding up front surrounded by great swingmen (like the Celtics).

    That, of course, means a player like Bosh would be less important than a player like Rondo or Wade.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    The NBA's rules and their enforcement makes frontcourt players less important than they were in the past. A player like Olajuwon or Kareem would not be able to dominate today nearly as much because of how the rules changed to protect ball-handlers. We see now that the most successful teams tend to have bullish players in the frontcourt, like Kendrick Perkins, who is a pure example (no identifiable basketball skills -- cannot dribble, shoot, pass, or function as much of anything except a roadblock).

    The winning teams are dominated by ball-handlers like KB24, Lebron, Rondo, Nash, Wade etc. The Magic are an example of a team that has put its eggs in the wrong basket in that they have a bullish player, Superman, but not a dominant ball-handler.

    If the league were to change its rules to make Perkins-style defense illegal, such players would be extraneous and skilled big men -- probably Eurotrash players -- would be in greater demand. That is how Euroleague games are called, and the NBA already changed the rules for ball-handlers, so I can see it happening for the frontcourt players too, but until and unless it does, a team would be better suited to go for defense and rebounding up front surrounded by great swingmen (like the Celtics).

    That, of course, means a player like Bosh would be less important than a player like Rondo or Wade.
    Yes, those rules are known as the "Michael drives the TV ratings rules".

    The NBA installed them so that Jordan and his Bulls could finally beat the Pistons in the playoffs and drive the TV ratings upward bringing in more money for the league.

    Big men are still very important but their importance is now more defense and rebounding related than it is offense related. Though it is still very important to have at least one big man who can play above average on both sides of the ball in the paint. This is something that Bosh can only partially do well.

    Bosh is very good at

    1. Getting to basket and/or scoring or getting fouled and making his foul shots

    2. Defensive rebounding

    3. Jump shooting

    He is not so good at

    1. A low post game including passing quickly enough out of the double team

    2. Offensive rebouding

    3. Low post defense

    Bosh of course is a PF and not a center so his game is not geared to being most effective in the low post but more off of the block just outside the paint.

    Bosh could be the #1 scorer and rebounder on a Finals team but the team would need a very good guard like Wade.
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    no

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    The NBA's rules and their enforcement makes frontcourt players less important than they were in the past. A player like Olajuwon or Kareem would not be able to dominate today nearly as much because of how the rules changed to protect ball-handlers.
    I don't think this is true. Yes, the rule changes have made it easier for ball-handlers to penetrate and control a game, but Olajuwon and Kareem would easily dominate inside these days. It's just easier to find quicker, smaller ballhandlers then it is to find skilled bigs.

    You can't compare Dwight Howard to them since he has about one quarter of the offensive coordination that Hakeem had.

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    Bosh will never be the MAIN option on a championship team!! Hatelosing and others have pretty much captured most reasons why. Bosh is an extremely talented jump shooter, defensive rebounder, and draws fouls. Bosh is a poor defender, he cannot pass for his life, he cannot get strong and physical which it takes for the playoffs and especially the finals. He is a good second option and a strong third option on a championship team. Look at what's going on in the finals now and you can see why Lakers and Celtics are there. They not only have talent and team defense, they have guys that have something Bosh does not have. The heart and desire to bring everything he's got and then some. Guys like Kobe, Gasol, Pierce, Rondo, Garnett all have more talent than Bosh and also way more desire and heart. The other thing everyone of them brings that Bosh has not yet learned is a respect for his teamates. They all understand that you need to show your teamates the love and respect they deserve and they will play harder for you and the team. They all play team ball, which Bosh has never done well nor do I believe he can unless he's a third option and has no choice.

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    Buddha, how much Bosh did you really watch this year?

    He led the league for most of the season in offensive rebounding, his low post game now has several counter moves and his low post defense isn't awful, it is more his face up defense that lacks any sort lateral quickness.

    Almost any star can win a title in the league as the first option, go to guy or top banana. The league is so talented now that chemistry, teamwork and desire have trumped individual athleticism, star power and 1 on 5 offense.

    Lebron is the best player in the league, it is fairly ridiculous that people debate it, but being the best player in the league no longer guarantees you a deep run into the playoffs. Boston has beaten Wade, Bron, Dwight and now is on the verge on beating Kobe. Those are pretty much the top four dogs in the league and minus Wade they all had talented supporting casts, but none of them believed in each other as much as they believed in themselves.

    The Suns and Celtics have proved that the new recipe for success is being 12 strong. No one is above anyone else and every man on the team has to contribute when his name is called. It took Kobe a long time to learn this and I'm still not even a 100% if he accepts it.

    Can Bosh win as the best player on his team, yes it is possible, but it likely won't be on the raptors and it definitely won't be until his ego floats back to earth. Bosh's game is stuck in the 90's, he wants to do it all himself and be alone atop the mountain. You win together or you die alone, some guys get it right away, some guys pretend to get it and for others it is innate as winning.

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    Not a chance. CB4 is a very good player, and I feel bad for him, because I think over the course of 7 years our misguided management and MLSE has indoctrinated him into a belief that he is DA MAN. I hope the shock of this fallacy does not completely overwhelm him next year, especially if he goes to the West and has to lock horns with some pretty tough teams on a regular basis.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Historically, the key to winning championships is stacking your team with superstars, for both your starting 5 and your bench. Fairly obvious. Coaches do have a bit of influence, but you can basically win championships with any decent coach. Doc was on the brink of getting replaced coz the celtics were bottom-dwellers for a number of seasons, and then they make a move to get Allen and Garnett and a bunch of other better than average players and Doc becomes coach of the year. Same with the Lakers. They miss the playoffs when Kobe was the only one left, they make trades to get in Lamar, Fisher, Gasol and they become contenders again. When they missed the playoffs, Tomjanovich was the coach, a coach who took the Rockets to back to back championships couldnt even take the Lakers to the playoffs. Dont you notice Phil Jackson never takes on a team with less than 4 superstars? its because he knows he wont win. You cant finish a project without the proper tools.

    If Bosh wants to win a championship, he has to team up with at least 2 more superstars. If he stays in Toronto, he should accept the fact that he probably will have to wait for a couple more seasons till the Raptors become playoff contenders and be able to attract big name superstars. Either he remains the #1 option and doesnt win a championship, or be good of an option as any other superstar on the team and only then he'll win a title.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    Buddha, how much Bosh did you really watch this year? He led the league for most of the season in offensive rebounding,
    You want to go double or nothing on that statement?

    Bosh 2.9 offensive rebounds per 36 min

    Johnson 3.8
    Love 4.8
    Howard 3.6

    There a lot more better than Bosh but I have to leave for the Dentist.

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    Check this article (http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/04/08/p...s-boshs-value/) that compares Bosh to every other PF in the past decade at 25. He rates higher in offensive rebounding than everyone except Boozer and Randolph. We are talking better than the primes of KG, TD, Amare, Pau, Odom, Sheed and Lee. Offensive rebounding is not one of Bosh's myriad of deficiencies. I think his offensive rebounding rate will go down next year because he will revert back to slinging j's instead of dropping stepping in the paint, but until that happens it is merely conjecture.

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    Bosh's offensive rebounding is fine. If he wasn't so offensively talented (especially from the high/mid post) and was relocated to a garbage man role, his offensive rebounding rate would noticeably improve.

    It's like criticizing Bargnani for his non existent OReb despite the fact he's used as a perimeter stretch 5 and is rarely in the paint at all.

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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    I think Bosh can be the number one guy on a contender but he need to change a lot of his game. There are three things that would help get him there.
    If Bosh made all these improvements he'd be perennial top 3 MVP candidate and one of the greatest bigmen of all time.

    As it stands, his super efficient and diverse offensive game is probably good enough to be the #1 scoring threat on any team. Only Lebron and Durant clearly had better offensive seasons than Bosh this past year in terms of pure usage and efficiency.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    Check this article (http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/04/08/p...s-boshs-value/) that compares Bosh to every other PF in the past decade at 25. He rates higher in offensive rebounding than everyone except Boozer and Randolph. We are talking better than the primes of KG, TD, Amare, Pau, Odom, Sheed and Lee. Offensive rebounding is not one of Bosh's myriad of deficiencies. I think his offensive rebounding rate will go down next year because he will revert back to slinging j's instead of dropping stepping in the paint, but until that happens it is merely conjecture.
    My friend you are starting to do Bosh hypes like I do Johnson hypes. Comparing at age 25.

    Their are so many ways to look at the numbers

    How about percentage of offensive rebounds
    How about rebounds per minute in the player's seventh season

    I never said anything about comparing him to other PFs. That is your reinvention.

    I said that he is not so good at offensive rebounding. That compares him to every other player in the league, not just PFs. Yes I would agree that he is a pretty good offensive rebounder for a PF but Johnson, Love, Blair did better than him last season just to name three and I am sure that there are other PF's who averaged more offensive rebounds per 36 minutes than Bosh did.

    According to 82games.com Bosh made 61% of his inside shots

    Lets look at some other PF

    1. Johnson 71%
    2. P. Gasol 63%
    3. Stoudemire 67%
    4. J. Smith 63%
    5. KG 68%
    6. Boozer 67%
    7. Landry 66%
    8. Aldridge 64%
    9. Duncan 64%
    10. Blair 62%
    11. Scola 62%
    12. Blatche 62%
    13. Beasley 64%
    14. I stopped after Beasley

    So in terms of inside shooting percentage Bosh ranks about in the middle of the pack of all the NBA Power Forwards.


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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    Check this article (http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/04/08/p...s-boshs-value/) that compares Bosh to every other PF in the past decade at 25. He rates higher in offensive rebounding than everyone except Boozer and Randolph. We are talking better than the primes of KG, TD, Amare, Pau, Odom, Sheed and Lee. Offensive rebounding is not one of Bosh's myriad of deficiencies. I think his offensive rebounding rate will go down next year because he will revert back to slinging j's instead of dropping stepping in the paint, but until that happens it is merely conjecture.
    Just imagine what Bosh's numbers would be like if he were getting some of those easy looks Amare gets via Steve Nash?

    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    So in terms of inside shooting percentage Bosh ranks about in the middle of the pack of all the NBA Power Forwards.
    Ok... But Bosh is an outside scorer who likes to slash. How do those guys stack up outside compared to Bosh? How do those guys stack up in terms of getting to the line compared to Bosh?
    Last edited by Apollo; Wed Jun 16th, 2010 at 02:14 PM.

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