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Thread: Start Rasho Over Bargnani

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    Administrator Dr. James Naismith's Avatar
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    Default Start Rasho Over Bargnani

    I'm not saying this to be spiteful or as a disgruntled fan right now, but as a solution to a team with no direction or identity. Rasho obviously isn't a long term fix by any means and eventhough he's slower than a tortoise, right now he's the kind of support Bosh needs in the front court. Someone to help clear space in the paint, someone who has fantastic awareness not to mention a keen knack of rolling off the perfect pick and someone who is strong on the offensive glass creating second hand chances.

    Contracts shouldn't dictate who starts and who comes off the bench, but unfortunately that's what happens. Until Bargnani wakes up and shows some grit, I'd prefer to see him come off the bench. Jay sent a message to Bargnani by benching him in the 4th quarter tonight which made me happy, but anyone who thinks this kid is the player we're going to build around in the future is kidding themselves and dare I say somewhat delusional.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    I agree bosh needs help, especially in terms of second chance points. The reason Bosh and bargs don't work together is that they both play outside, meaning no one gets the rebound. My solution would be to structure the offense in a way that one of them is at the basket and one is outside, so someone can get on the glass. Now if you do that, and you tell barge that when its his turn to be at the glass his only concern is cleaning up, and he still fails then you put Rasho in the startin line up. But with the rellative improvement bargs has shown this year I think he should be given a chance. Plus, on the plays you run where bargs gets the shot bosh has a great rebounding IQ and will have a good chance for the rebound.

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    Quote Doc Naismith wrote: View Post
    I'm not saying this to be spiteful or as a disgruntled fan right now, but as a solution to a team with no direction or identity. Rasho obviously isn't a long term fix by any means and eventhough he's slower than a tortoise, right now he's the kind of support Bosh needs in the front court. Someone to help clear space in the paint, someone who has fantastic awareness not to mention a keen knack of rolling off the perfect pick and someone who is strong on the offensive glass creating second hand chances.

    Contracts shouldn't dictate who starts and who comes off the bench, but unfortunately that's what happens. Until Bargnani wakes up and shows some grit, I'd prefer to see him come off the bench. Jay sent a message to Bargnani by benching him in the 4th quarter tonight which made me happy, but anyone who thinks this kid is the player we're going to build around in the future is kidding themselves and dare I say somewhat delusional.
    The above measure sounds more punitive than constructive. At this stage of their careers, I will take Andrea with his deficiencies over Rasho. With such a move, we are deflating our assets value and taking valuable experience from a young player that is still growing.


    A couple of years ago, I was angry about the Raptors starting Andrea ahead of Rasho in the playoffs... I felt it was stupid to use that time to groom a rookie. Some disagreed. My view is that once you are in the playoffs the number one priority is to win, and win at any cost. Playing rookies is fine as they need that valuable experience, but it shouldn't be done if its hindering the team and you know another player can step in and perform better.


    To me Andrea always seemed like a player that needed a slap every so often to keep him from getting too comfortable. Notice that he seems to play good when he has something to prove. Take for instance his horrible performance in Europe, he comes here and plays above his head for a few games... than starts settling into his comfort zone and soon is observing the action instead of influencing it. Remember how he played in Boston at the beginning of the year... even their homer announcers were dumbfounded when they saw Bargnani pushing his will on Boston with impunity. He was blocking, protecting lanes and causing serious havoc with his frame.

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    Administrator Dr. James Naismith's Avatar
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    Quote trizzo wrote: View Post
    The above measure sounds more punitive than constructive. At this stage of their careers, I will take Andrea with his deficiencies over Rasho. With such a move, we are deflating our assets value and taking valuable experience from a young player that is still growing.
    True, but this isn't anything new. Remember, this isn't a rookie but someone in their 4th season in the league. Messages need to be sent. Whether that be a 4th quarter benching or not starting the next couple games. Bargnani needs to show some type of emotion instead of that deer in the headlights look he gives.

    The blocked shots were there, but nothing with his frame last night caused havoc. If it did it was with us and not causing issues for the Celtics.

    Look, although it might sound like I'm blaming him I don't mean too. It just irks me to no end when I see the potential of a player like Andrea that we saw for the 2nd half of last season and the start of this one, quickly become a "mental midget" and looking like a rookie instead of someone making an identity for himself over this past season. Players slump, but not as significant as he has over the last week and a half. This certainly needs to be addressed by Triano be it a clip board over the head or a stern talking too.

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    Administrator Dr. James Naismith's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    I agree bosh needs help, especially in terms of second chance points. The reason Bosh and bargs don't work together is that they both play outside, meaning no one gets the rebound. My solution would be to structure the offense in a way that one of them is at the basket and one is outside, so someone can get on the glass. Now if you do that, and you tell barge that when its his turn to be at the glass his only concern is cleaning up, and he still fails then you put Rasho in the startin line up. But with the rellative improvement bargs has shown this year I think he should be given a chance. Plus, on the plays you run where bargs gets the shot bosh has a great rebounding IQ and will have a good chance for the rebound.
    Welcome to the RR forums hateslosing. And I do hate losing too.

    But that style of offense is already something this team has played since Andrea was drafted so we could use his strength of the hitting the three pointer to help stretch the offense. The problem with that when you use it as often as the Raptors do, is that you reduce your percentage of second hand chances when its one man on the offensive glass rather than two.

    I can understand if Andrea has the hot hand from outside, but when he struggles as much as he has over this last week, he needs to recognize that and make changes to find other ways to score. Whether it be driving more to the hoop or trying to make something work on the post.

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    I think that it's time to lock Bargnani in a closet somewhere and force him to watch his game against the Cavs from this year on repeat. That's the Bargnani (plus a couple more rebounds) that can best serve the Raptors.

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    Administrator Dr. James Naismith's Avatar
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    Quote DonCarlos wrote: View Post
    I think that it's time to lock Bargnani in a closet somewhere and force him to watch his game against the Cavs from this year on repeat. That's the Bargnani (plus a couple more rebounds) that can best serve the Raptors.
    LOL ... well said DonCarlos and welcome to the RR forums my friend.

    If Bargnani could consistently impersonate Hakeem's "Dream Shake" like he did that night of the season opener, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

    Find your inner Hakeem, Andrea.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star brothersteve's Avatar
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    Last season and to start the year, plays were run for AB and he produced.

    Now AB rarely sees the ball and the complaints have started about his poor play.

    Bosh is getting over 25 offensive opportunities per game whether or not is he is producing and his defense has sucked! Ever see Bosh kick the ball out to a wide open Bargs out of a double-team, that's pretty hard to imagine!

    So now the solution is to eliminate Bosh's competition for offensive plays by starting someone else?

    How about the COACH grows a pair and starts running the team as a team!
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    We're already looking at Rasho to be a starter? Don't think that was the plan when we got him for the bi-annual exception. IMHO, this is drastic, you can't have a freshly signed 10M player coming off the bench, BC wouldn't allow it!

    Like it or not, Bargnani's in there to stay.

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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    We're already looking at Rasho to be a starter? Don't think that was the plan when we got him for the bi-annual exception. IMHO, this is drastic, you can't have a freshly signed 10M player coming off the bench, BC wouldn't allow it!

    Like it or not, Bargnani's in there to stay.
    What's your solution then Arse? Is this a coaching issue and not necessarily a roster problem?

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    Quote Doc Naismith wrote: View Post
    What's your solution then Arse? Is this a coaching issue and not necessarily a roster problem?
    Solution is for Bargnani to start rebounding and playing his height and weight. There are no other options, hiding a poor defensive/rebounding starting center is next to impossible.

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    I think that the time Bosh and Bargnani spend together on the floor needs to be limited, given that our guards rely on the help defence so much. We don't have Gerald Wallace as our 3, we have Hedo. Now, he played great D for Orlando given that he had Howard behind him to count on to help. On our team? Not so much.

    My concern with Rasho starting is his age. He just can't really play all that much, unfortunately. We don't have an ideal floor-mate for Bosh or for Bargnani at the present time. I was willing to give it 15-20 games to see if Bosh and Bargs could work it out, but it has become apparent to me that they cannot - at least not with our guards and SF.

    I think before you bench Bargnani, the first step is to start Wright instead of DD. We don't have an ideal player to improve our defence alongside Bosh or Bargnani. See if this helps as our players may need to help less. This is an idea (the merits of which I won't discuss now) that I have been on board with for a little while now, provided DD gets the ball more in his hands as part of a second unit.

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    Quote trizzo wrote: View Post
    The above measure sounds more punitive than constructive. At this stage of their careers, I will take Andrea with his deficiencies over Rasho. With such a move, we are deflating our assets value and taking valuable experience from a young player that is still growing.
    Agreed -- Sitting Andrea down will have a monumentally damaging effect on his trade value. He'll become the contract that nobody in the league wants to touch.

    While he's playing he has good trade value since he's (1) young (2) seven feet (3) scores almost 20ppg (4) is considered to have more potential. Several teams will find that enticing package and will be interested in parting with legitimate talent to acquire him ... but all that goes out the window if Bargnani heads to the bench and plays 17-24 minutes a night while putting up 8-10 points and 3-4 rebounds.

    I also do not think sitting Bargnani behind a player like Rasho Nesterovic will have any positive effect on his own development. The Raptors have tried this before and it clearly didn't work. Now, Bargnani is older, has gotten paid, and has tasted some success. Consequently, it's far more likely to have a negative impact on Bargnani than a positive one.

    The single worst thing that the Raptors can do with Andrea Bargnani right now is sit him on the bench ... despite it making the team better which I believe it would.

    The two options here should be (1) Trade Bargnani, or, (2) Build a team around Bargnani's flaws ... and only one of those is a good option.

    Quote trizzo wrote: View Post
    To me Andrea always seemed like a player that needed a slap every so often to keep him from getting too comfortable.
    Haha ... funny and true!

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    Dave,

    When you think about it, Colangelo even offering Andrea lowers his value (it is well known that he has a fondness for his pick), he would have to negotiate in such a way that the other party asks for Andrea 1st, than he can reluctently part with him when the deal is too his liking.



    It would also help to know what Bosh is doing... and I don't know if that is evident to Bryan yet.

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    Quote Dave wrote: View Post
    The two options here should be (1) Trade Bargnani, or, (2) Build a team around Bargnani's flaws ... and only one of those is a good option.
    we've tried to do the same with bosh but have failed miserably....

    bosh and bargs are almost identical...they both dont utilize their frame...both hate the paint.....both dont play defense....neither ate "max" players...

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Raps_in_backspin's Avatar
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    I'm just gonna point something out.
    Tim Duncan, one of the greatest players in NBA history. What's his nickname?

    The Great Fundamental.

    Bargs has to begin to understand it's not all do or die in terms of when his offense isnt working and he doesnt help out, say, on defense.

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    No way in hell. Start Bargs, but give several more minutes to Amir Johnson (at both Bargs and Turk's expense). You can also slide Turk into a pseudo 2 role in *certain* situations and thus take a bit of time from Jack/DD/Beli at the 2.
    We need A) improved rebounding B) a shot blocking presence C) energy and hustle. Amir provides all of these things. Rasho not so much.
    What do we have an abundance of? "Finesse" scoring and outside shooting. So BALANCE The lineup dammit. Amir Johnson needs more minutes if we want to win games.

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