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Thread: Team Needs

  1. #21
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    If Bosh stayed front court
    Bosh, Davis, Bargnani, Alabi (d league maybe), Johnson
    Thats a solid frontcourt for the future, oldest player is Bosh at 26.

  2. #22
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    Quote da_goose09 wrote: View Post
    I disagree.. I think they need a starting center. I don't think Davis will be ready to be a full-time starter in this league, nor do I want Amir at that slot. I'd rather those two be bigs #3 and 4 in the rotation.
    Well, they have a starting center, but I think they need to trade him.

    Quote geebee wrote: View Post
    The fact is we don't have an all-star starting PG, and unless we manage to crowbar CP away we're not likely to get one. Setting up Turk as a point-forward not only gives him what he wants, it allows hime to rebuild his value as a commodity. As it is, BC has no leverage in the trade market with Turk. It's already public he wants out.

    People keep talking about these potential trades for the Raps, but there's not a lot of people we have leverage with. Not Bosh and not Turk. Aside from that, all we've got is a few expiring contracts and a pair of backup point guards.

    Try and get a good defensive perimeter shooter at PG.
    Let Derozan continue to develop as a slasher at SG.
    Give Turk "ball" as the natural point-forward.
    Match-up a strong defensive/rebounding big and a scoring big.

    There's a starting line-up.

    Back that up with Jack, Weems, a new SG, Amir and Alabi.

    No, they're not going to dazzle anybody, but does anybody REALLY believe we were going to dazzle this season anyway? Let's at least try to maximize the assets we have left without simply GIVING them away.
    With the team looking the way it is, I think you need to trade Turkoglu and keep Calderon. Both are currently at a low, value-wise, but I think keeping Turkoglu might cause more problems, especially if he's not happy. He's still not very far from his heroic playoff run, so still should have value, and getting him away from the youngsters might be the best thing.

    I think the Raptors will need Calderon's playmaking ability and he's certainly not going to cause any problems for the team and is a good example for the kids. Plus, if he has a good year, his value goes up.

    The Raptors don't need to be in any hurry to get themselves an All-Star point guard, but I've suggested the trade of Bargnani for Rubio on other threads. He wouldn't help the team right away (because he wouldn't come right away), but he's got the chance to be a special PG in the league.

    If Bosh leaves, hopefully the team can add a center or SF and then grab what they don't have on the free agent market. A high lottery pick next year and the team is off and running. Young, better defensively and athletic.

  3. #23
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    If Bosh leaves, hopefully the team can add a center or SF and then grab what they don't have on the free agent market. A high lottery pick next year and the team is off and running. Young, better defensively and athletic.
    So, for 2010/11 you're looking at:

    Calderon/Jack
    Derozan/Weems
    SF in trade for Bosh

    ... and Amir/Davis/Evans/Alabi in front?

    From your comment, you've acknowledged that your intent is to pretty much build a lottery team, which is unquestionably what you'll end up with. I'm sorry but I don't now, nor will I ever, understand a team taking the approach of "let's be as bad as we possibly can".

    I can tolerate incompetence a lot better than I can planned failure.

  4. #24
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    Quote geebee wrote: View Post
    So, for 2010/11 you're looking at:

    Calderon/Jack
    Derozan/Weems
    SF in trade for Bosh

    ... and Amir/Davis/Evans/Alabi in front?

    From your comment, you've acknowledged that your intent is to pretty much build a lottery team, which is unquestionably what you'll end up with. I'm sorry but I don't now, nor will I ever, understand a team taking the approach of "let's be as bad as we possibly can".

    I can tolerate incompetence a lot better than I can planned failure.
    Were you around during the Knicks yearly imposion several years back? That is inarguably the worst case scenario for any team. Now see the Knicks of the past several years; that is the epitome of planned failure.

    Being REALISTIC and realizing your team does not have the parts to turn your team into anything more than a perpetually mediocre team is not "let's be as bad as we possibly can". Deciding on a rebuild plan that will hopefully give you a higher ceiling than before is not "let's be as bad as we possibly can". Not seeing the ceiling before you slam right into it is though.

    Do you see anyone complaining about OKC's rebuild? They are now one of the best and most exciting teams to follow.

  5. #25
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    Quote geebee wrote: View Post
    So, for 2010/11 you're looking at:

    Calderon/Jack
    Derozan/Weems
    SF in trade for Bosh

    ... and Amir/Davis/Evans/Alabi in front?

    From your comment, you've acknowledged that your intent is to pretty much build a lottery team, which is unquestionably what you'll end up with. I'm sorry but I don't now, nor will I ever, understand a team taking the approach of "let's be as bad as we possibly can".

    I can tolerate incompetence a lot better than I can planned failure.
    The intent is not to build a lottery team, but to focus on building around young players and ridding the team of unwanted players. The result is a lottery team initially, but with a bright, longterm future. Oklahoma/Seattle did basically that, and now every fan wants their team to be like them.

    When the Spurs drafted David Robinson, they were awful. In the two years before he played for them, they shed themselves of unwanted players and were an awful team, but one with some nice young pieces. By the time Robinson played for them, they were able to surround him with good talent.

    If the Raptors can trade Bargnani for Rubio, they will have their potential franchise PG, some very good defensive big men and good athletic wingmen. If the Raptors can do that, and grab Harrison Barnes, the team is in better shape than they ever have been before. I'm willing to suffer through a bad season for that,

    Ideally, you don't want to have to become a lottery team to get better, but the Raptors already are. They're not the Spurs or Celtics who have the luxury of being able to contend at the same time as developing their younger players to take over. Like it or not, the Raptors are a lottery team right now. You can make a few trades and make them a low level playoff team, but that's all they can be. Realistically, their ceiling is mediocrity. In the NBA, it's very difficult to get better if you're a mediocre team.

  6. #26
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    In the NBA, it's very difficult to get better if you're a mediocre team.
    Need to really emphasize this point. The salary cap rules is what makes it difficult. A lot of Raptors fans have been led to believe creating a good team is simply about not being cheap, opening your wallet and going out there to sign X, Y and Z superstars.

    I don't think Bargnani has a bad contract, and I even like Calderon, but the combination of those 2 plus Hedo + overpaid but now expiring contracts (Banks and Evans) have us over the cap now and after July 1st. Because Hedo's contract isn't that great, you're unlikely to get someone new without an also not that great contract so really, you should expect only a sidestep in that area. Because most of the top teams pursuing Bosh actually have a lot of cap space, you shouldn't really expect getting anything good back either.

    Add this all up and barring a miracle, you have a very mediocre team. We aren't the Celtics before they acquired Garnett and Allen. They had a good 14 years of mediocrity after 1992-1993, McHale's last year, and they even tried with a near the end of his career Dominique Wilkins in 94-95 and still couldn't revive anything. For those 14 years, they only had 3 seasons where they won more than 36 games, all Pierce's years. Kind of like the Raptors they peaked early at 49 wins, then went downhill from there as quickly as they had gone uphill. It was because they managed to not only build up some young talent and high draft picks but swindle Minnesota and probably also Seattle that they acquired the core for their current team. Until this draft we had neither the young talent and we still don't have the high draft pick they traded for Allen, nor are there any players like KG and Allen available for the plucking, so we'll probably have to build up the hard way.

  7. #27
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    Being REALISTIC and realizing your team does not have the parts to turn your team into anything more than a perpetually mediocre team is not "let's be as bad as we possibly can". Deciding on a rebuild plan that will hopefully give you a higher ceiling than before is not "let's be as bad as we possibly can".
    With all due respect, trading away Bargs but keeping Calderon doesn't sound much like "building for the future". If you're developing younger talent, why not keep Bargs and trade Calderon/Bosh for a PG with upside potential?

    No. Tim's plan is to give away the young talent we have... keep the players with glaring downsides in their game, and wait for the lottery pick. You can try to spin it, but that's still tanking.

  8. #28
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    Quote geebee wrote: View Post
    With all due respect, trading away Bargs but keeping Calderon doesn't sound much like "building for the future". If you're developing younger talent, why not keep Bargs and trade Calderon/Bosh for a PG with upside potential?

    No. Tim's plan is to give away the young talent we have... keep the players with glaring downsides in their game, and wait for the lottery pick. You can try to spin it, but that's still tanking.
    I don't think I ever mentioned keeping or trading Calderon, or keeping or trading Bargnani. The proposed lineup was by you, not me. The only pieces I definitely want to keep are Amir, DeRozan and Davis. BC will have to determine what other pieces still fit around those 3. If he thinks Bargnani and Davis fit together, then that's fine, or if he thinks the youngsters would benefit from having Calderon around, that's fine too. You also forget that young pieces can always be traded for other young pieces (e.g. Tim's Bargnani for Rubio idea), and that not every young piece is worth keeping simply because it's young. Look at OKC -- Jeff Green isn't part of their long term plans.

    If you call keeping DeRozan, Davis and Amir giving away the young talent we have, then sure, I can't really argue with you.
    Last edited by Quixotic; Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 08:46 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Doc Naismith wrote: View Post
    I personally don't think keeping Hedo is even an option. Sure Colangelo said the other day that time has a way of healing wounds, but with Hedo publically demanding a trade there's nothing good that can come of this. He was a disruption and a huge disappointment for the most part last season, so you mix in a trade demand and nothing good can still come from this. If we're retooling/rebuilding then apart of that must include getting rid of Hedo. Fans will not forget nor forgive.
    What the team needs should be the priority.
    If they don't have a starting 3, I don't have any issue if they
    try to patch things with Turk, until they get one.

  10. #30
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    I don't think I ever mentioned keeping or trading Calderon, or keeping or trading Bargnani.
    Nope. Tim did, and you vigorously defended his approach, so don't tell me now that you don't recognize it.

    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    The only pieces I definitely want to keep are Amir, DeRozan and Davis. BC will have to determine what other pieces still fit around those 3.
    Or, if you're convinced that we can never be competitive as is, we can simply cut all the other players and forfeit the entire season. Then you'd have a clean slate for 2011-12.

    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    If you call keeping DeRozan, Davis and Amir giving away the young talent we have, then sure, I can't really argue with you.
    Not at all. I'm sure they'd be very competitive in 3-on-3 tournaments. However, it's not an NBA team.

  11. #31
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    Quote dn66 wrote: View Post
    What the team needs should be the priority.
    If they don't have a starting 3, I don't have any issue if they
    try to patch things with Turk, until they get one.
    Agreed.
    BC can't run a team by public opinion poll.

  12. #32
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Johnson will resign. If nothing else happens to the roster except Davis comes in, Bosh leaves and Johnson starts the team will better than last season, make no mistake about it.
    I really don't think that will be the case. I think we will really have a lack of depth and have trouble scoring inside without Bosh. As good as we were offensively, when we got jump shot happy we really struggled. Defensively, you have to wonder what Davis can do in the NBA in only his rookie year. I think we'll be closer to the Nets than to a five-hundred team. I hope I'm wrong though.

  13. #33
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    Quote geebee wrote: View Post
    Nope. Tim did, and you vigorously defended his approach, so don't tell me now that you don't recognize it.
    I recognized it was an obvious rebuilding effort, and his personal choices wasn't really the point, was it now? I simply stated a rebuild is not intentional tanking. What's more, Tim might not like Bargnani but I actually do, so your attempt to put words in my mouth doesn't really work.

    Quote geebee wrote: View Post
    Or, if you're convinced that we can never be competitive as is, we can simply cut all the other players and forfeit the entire season. Then you'd have a clean slate for 2011-12.
    Not sure why feeling the team as is can't compete must lead to a total wipedown, but if you think not being a serious contender means throwing the baby out with the bathwater, that's on you. More trying to put words into my mouth.

    Quote geebee wrote: View Post
    Not at all. I'm sure they'd be very competitive in 3-on-3 tournaments. However, it's not an NBA team.
    You really like twisting stuff around just to be argumentative, don't you. If you didn't notice, I said "BC will have to determine what other pieces still fit around those 3," as in finding 9+ more players either out of the current roster or elsewhere to perfectly complement those kids. Not that we have their fortune in starting with Durant, but Durant + Green wasn't an NBA team in 2007-2008 or 2008-2009 either, but they kept Collison, picked up Westbrook in the lottery, traded for Sefolosha, and where are they now? Yes, I only named 5 players, but you're smart enough to know they had 7 other players around them, so no more inane arguments about pick-up ball, please.

    And just in case you haven't noticed, even with Bosh + Turkoglu + Calderon + Jack, we are already a lottery team.

  14. #34
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    Quote CB4 wrote: View Post
    I really don't think that will be the case. I think we will really have a lack of depth and have trouble scoring inside without Bosh. As good as we were offensively, when we got jump shot happy we really struggled. Defensively, you have to wonder what Davis can do in the NBA in only his rookie year. I think we'll be closer to the Nets than to a five-hundred team. I hope I'm wrong though.
    Bosh was a big reason for our success, little as it might be. During his first absent stretch, we didn't notice his absence as much due to the caliber of teams we played. Over an entire season, however, you are totally right about us being closer to the Nets than a .500 team. Fact is, once Bosh is gone, our next best offensive talent will receive more defensive looks, and so on and so forth down the line -- everyone will have a harder time scoring. We can only hope that the young'uns take this upcoming year to learn to play the right way: good hard-nosed defense, commitment to boxing out, rebounding and diving for loose balls, and continued willingness to learn. At least then, even if we bomb, we'll have the excitement of watching our prospects grow. With the right approach, we could be the next OKC, which is far better than constantly being in the middle and unable to move up due to lack of cap space and high draft picks.

  15. #35
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    I recognized it was an obvious rebuilding effort, and his personal choices wasn't really the point, was it now? I simply stated a rebuild is not intentional tanking.?
    And I said that effectively cutting all but your weakest starters IS tanking, so it really does come down to personal choices. If Tim's plan is to not even to TRY to field a competitive team, then frankly that's called tanking.

    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    You really like twisting stuff around just to be argumentative, don't you.
    Funny. I don't see it that way. I was responding to Tim's comment and then you jumped in and started talking down to me. I don't consider it "being argumentative" simply because I disagree with your criticism.

    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    If you didn't notice, I said "BC will have to determine what other pieces still fit around those 3," as in finding 9+ more players either out of the current roster or elsewhere to perfectly complement those kids. Not that we have their fortune in starting with Durant, but Durant + Green wasn't an NBA team in 2007-2008 or 2008-2009 either
    No, we don't. We're not OKC, so I don't understand why you keep comparing us to them. All I've tried to say is let's not throw away decent pieces just for the sake of doing so. We've got three so-so PGs. At least one of them can/should go. We've got only one true SF. Unless we can get a guaranteed solid replacement, there's no logical reason to simply throw him away. Bargs is inconsistent, but after Bosh he's also our best offensive big. I see no reason to simply abandon THAT project either.

    I've got no problem with rebuilding, but as soon as Bosh goes this is a different team and I'd like to see what kind of team it could be before I agree that we should start shuffling the deck.

  16. #36
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    Quote geebee wrote: View Post
    And I said that effectively cutting all but your weakest starters IS tanking, so it really does come down to personal choices. If Tim's plan is to not even to TRY to field a competitive team, then frankly that's called tanking.
    Let's just agree to disagree here.

    Quote geebee wrote: View Post
    Funny. I don't see it that way. I was responding to Tim's comment and then you jumped in and started talking down to me. I don't consider it "being argumentative" simply because I disagree with your criticism.
    Talking down to you? I don't know what to say here, except don't be so sensitive? I don't know where I was talking down to you, unless asking you if you followed basketball back during Isaiah's days is considered condescending. A legit question, no? We'll have to agree to disagree here as well.

    Quote geebee wrote: View Post
    No, we don't. We're not OKC, so I don't understand why you keep comparing us to them.
    Because it's easier to use examples, which I even qualified as being flawed, than to wave my arms around in the air in front of a computer screen trying to illustrate a tangible example without using examples.

    Quote geebee wrote: View Post
    All I've tried to say is let's not throw away decent pieces just for the sake of doing so. [...] I've got no problem with rebuilding, but as soon as Bosh goes this is a different team and I'd like to see what kind of team it could be before I agree that we should start shuffling the deck.
    If you had said this sooner, you would have had no disagreement from me. Plus, I do not intend to throw anything away. Turkoglu is the only piece we might have to give away for less value (he doesn't want to come back and was sensitive to the booing + TO fans hate quitters and will boo him incessantly = bad situation), but if it puts us in a better financial situation, that's not necessarily less value. If we move anyone else, it should be in a move that fits the team better, and that's what I thought I was stressing.

  17. #37
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    Quote geebee wrote: View Post
    With all due respect, trading away Bargs but keeping Calderon doesn't sound much like "building for the future". If you're developing younger talent, why not keep Bargs and trade Calderon/Bosh for a PG with upside potential?

    No. Tim's plan is to give away the young talent we have... keep the players with glaring downsides in their game, and wait for the lottery pick. You can try to spin it, but that's still tanking.
    Reread my post. The only player with a glaring downside I suggested keeping was Calderon. I would trade both Bargnani and Turkoglu. I'd keep Johnson, Davis, Alabi, Weems, DeRozan, Belinelli and Calderon. The only player over the age of 23 is Calderon. And the only player with a glaring weakness is Calderon, and he is the only player on the roster currently that makes his teammates better, which is one reason I keep him.

    The reason I trade Bargnani is because I think his value, along with his development, has peaked. I think he'll struggle as the Raptors main option next season and he'll be exposed for being basically what he is: a good jump shooting big man that can't create his own shot, rebound or play good defense. RIght now, teams still see the potential. I think next year that will fade and teams won't want to take as much of a chance on him.

    Turkoglu I would trade because I think he's still got value, and because I don't think you want lazy players like Turkoglu around developing young players. I think you need to be very careful with the type of player you bring on a team like the Raptors. If he's not a hard worker, I wouldn't take him.

    Jack I would trade simply because I think he's got a lot of value. He's a good player with a very good contract. I'd love to keep him, and if there's nothing that makes the team better, I'd keep him, but I think he's more valuable as a trade asset right now than as a player.

    As for tanking, I disagree. I'm not focusing on winning right now, but on developing and collecting young players. In the NBA, however, that generally means you don't win. Getting a high pick next year is not the goal, but the inevitable result of the plan.

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