Team Needs

[geebee]

Why can't they go after New Orleans' other stud PG?

Fair enough. I didn't realize he was potentially on the market, but I suppose the right offer might draw him out. The question is do we have that offer?

[Raptor4Ever]

Lets assume that Bosh and Hedo are both gone and we get some young talents and some draft picks for them.

Then we have a locker room of young guys and no LEADERS. I don't care about our needs for a talent in a specific position. This team needs a leader. A guy who can show these guys what it means to be in this league. A guy with high work ethics and a proven resume in this league. Some one who is NATURAL BORN LEADER.

I know some people will suggest Jack or AB ... But being an older player or being the best player in a team DOES NOT mean that you have to be the LEADER of the team.

We made this mistake with Bosh and tried to make a guy who does not have leadership qualities into a leader of the locker room just because he was our best player.

[Quixotic]

Team Needs:
1. Change at SF involving Hedo Turkoglu leaving Toronto
2. An upgrade at the PG position
3. A veteran backup center

Agree. As much as I believe in trading someone at their peak value, and Hedo is not at his peak value right now, if he couldn't handle the fans before coming out earlier this summer, he's definitely not going to do well with the fans hating him even more this fall. Without thinking about what the Wizards would want, I would be pretty happy if we managed to turn Turkoglu into Hinrich. Hinrich is Bradley with actual experience defending NBA guards, superior shooting ability, superior court vision, and superior playmaking skills, but without the flashy potential. I can live with that.

I don't know if we want Hinrich to start, or to split his minutes as backup at the 1 and 2 spots, but he would log a lot of minutes for sure, and would be an automatic upgrade at the point. I don't mind keeping Jack around, but I really don't see him as one of the better starting PGs in the league. Yeah, he plays a style that garners him a lot of love from TO residents, but realistically, Jack is in the bottom third of all starting PGs, and without Turkoglu it will become more apparent.

I like Bargnani, and I would love if he became a defensive stalwart (if he ever figures out help defense and defensive rebounding), but until then, it would be a dream if we acquired not a backup C, but a starting C who played immaculate defense. Okay, I'm dreaming here.

[Raptor4Ever]

Now I know more changes are to come, but looking at that depth chart right now just reek's of the New Jersey Nets from this past season.

This team will pick one of the top 3 positions in the draft next year. Lets hope next year's draft has some legit star power and NOT another AB as a first overall pick

[FromTOtoVAN]

yeah i actually think our pg position is pretty solid compared to other positions and i really dont see us getting a star point guard when so many teams are looking. I say we stick with this pairing for half a season and see what happens. Trade turk with bosh to chicago for deng, gibson and some picks

[FromTOtoVAN]

If Bosh stayed front court
Bosh, Davis, Bargnani, Alabi (d league maybe), Johnson
Thats a solid frontcourt for the future, oldest player is Bosh at 26.

[Tim W.]

I disagree.. I think they need a starting center. I don't think Davis will be ready to be a full-time starter in this league, nor do I want Amir at that slot. I'd rather those two be bigs #3 and 4 in the rotation.

Well, they have a starting center, but I think they need to trade him.

The fact is we don't have an all-star starting PG, and unless we manage to crowbar CP away we're not likely to get one. Setting up Turk as a point-forward not only gives him what he wants, it allows hime to rebuild his value as a commodity. As it is, BC has no leverage in the trade market with Turk. It's already public he wants out.

People keep talking about these potential trades for the Raps, but there's not a lot of people we have leverage with. Not Bosh and not Turk. Aside from that, all we've got is a few expiring contracts and a pair of backup point guards.

Try and get a good defensive perimeter shooter at PG.
Let Derozan continue to develop as a slasher at SG.
Give Turk "ball" as the natural point-forward.
Match-up a strong defensive/rebounding big and a scoring big.

There's a starting line-up.

Back that up with Jack, Weems, a new SG, Amir and Alabi.

No, they're not going to dazzle anybody, but does anybody REALLY believe we were going to dazzle this season anyway? Let's at least try to maximize the assets we have left without simply GIVING them away.

With the team looking the way it is, I think you need to trade Turkoglu and keep Calderon. Both are currently at a low, value-wise, but I think keeping Turkoglu might cause more problems, especially if he's not happy. He's still not very far from his heroic playoff run, so still should have value, and getting him away from the youngsters might be the best thing.

I think the Raptors will need Calderon's playmaking ability and he's certainly not going to cause any problems for the team and is a good example for the kids. Plus, if he has a good year, his value goes up.

The Raptors don't need to be in any hurry to get themselves an All-Star point guard, but I've suggested the trade of Bargnani for Rubio on other threads. He wouldn't help the team right away (because he wouldn't come right away), but he's got the chance to be a special PG in the league.

If Bosh leaves, hopefully the team can add a center or SF and then grab what they don't have on the free agent market. A high lottery pick next year and the team is off and running. Young, better defensively and athletic.

[geebee]

If Bosh leaves, hopefully the team can add a center or SF and then grab what they don't have on the free agent market. A high lottery pick next year and the team is off and running. Young, better defensively and athletic.

So, for 2010/11 you're looking at:

Calderon/Jack
Derozan/Weems
SF in trade for Bosh

... and Amir/Davis/Evans/Alabi in front?

From your comment, you've acknowledged that your intent is to pretty much build a lottery team, which is unquestionably what you'll end up with. I'm sorry but I don't now, nor will I ever, understand a team taking the approach of "let's be as bad as we possibly can".

I can tolerate incompetence a lot better than I can planned failure.

[Quixotic]

So, for 2010/11 you're looking at:

Calderon/Jack
Derozan/Weems
SF in trade for Bosh

... and Amir/Davis/Evans/Alabi in front?

From your comment, you've acknowledged that your intent is to pretty much build a lottery team, which is unquestionably what you'll end up with. I'm sorry but I don't now, nor will I ever, understand a team taking the approach of "let's be as bad as we possibly can".

I can tolerate incompetence a lot better than I can planned failure.

Were you around during the Knicks yearly imposion several years back? That is inarguably the worst case scenario for any team. Now see the Knicks of the past several years; that is the epitome of planned failure.

Being REALISTIC and realizing your team does not have the parts to turn your team into anything more than a perpetually mediocre team is not "let's be as bad as we possibly can". Deciding on a rebuild plan that will hopefully give you a higher ceiling than before is not "let's be as bad as we possibly can". Not seeing the ceiling before you slam right into it is though.

Do you see anyone complaining about OKC's rebuild? They are now one of the best and most exciting teams to follow.

[Tim W.]

So, for 2010/11 you're looking at:

Calderon/Jack
Derozan/Weems
SF in trade for Bosh

... and Amir/Davis/Evans/Alabi in front?

From your comment, you've acknowledged that your intent is to pretty much build a lottery team, which is unquestionably what you'll end up with. I'm sorry but I don't now, nor will I ever, understand a team taking the approach of "let's be as bad as we possibly can".

I can tolerate incompetence a lot better than I can planned failure.

The intent is not to build a lottery team, but to focus on building around young players and ridding the team of unwanted players. The result is a lottery team initially, but with a bright, longterm future. Oklahoma/Seattle did basically that, and now every fan wants their team to be like them.

When the Spurs drafted David Robinson, they were awful. In the two years before he played for them, they shed themselves of unwanted players and were an awful team, but one with some nice young pieces. By the time Robinson played for them, they were able to surround him with good talent.

If the Raptors can trade Bargnani for Rubio, they will have their potential franchise PG, some very good defensive big men and good athletic wingmen. If the Raptors can do that, and grab Harrison Barnes, the team is in better shape than they ever have been before. I'm willing to suffer through a bad season for that,

Ideally, you don't want to have to become a lottery team to get better, but the Raptors already are. They're not the Spurs or Celtics who have the luxury of being able to contend at the same time as developing their younger players to take over. Like it or not, the Raptors are a lottery team right now. You can make a few trades and make them a low level playoff team, but that's all they can be. Realistically, their ceiling is mediocrity. In the NBA, it's very difficult to get better if you're a mediocre team.

[Quixotic]

In the NBA, it's very difficult to get better if you're a mediocre team.

Need to really emphasize this point. The salary cap rules is what makes it difficult. A lot of Raptors fans have been led to believe creating a good team is simply about not being cheap, opening your wallet and going out there to sign X, Y and Z superstars.

I don't think Bargnani has a bad contract, and I even like Calderon, but the combination of those 2 plus Hedo + overpaid but now expiring contracts (Banks and Evans) have us over the cap now and after July 1st. Because Hedo's contract isn't that great, you're unlikely to get someone new without an also not that great contract so really, you should expect only a sidestep in that area. Because most of the top teams pursuing Bosh actually have a lot of cap space, you shouldn't really expect getting anything good back either.

Add this all up and barring a miracle, you have a very mediocre team. We aren't the Celtics before they acquired Garnett and Allen. They had a good 14 years of mediocrity after 1992-1993, McHale's last year, and they even tried with a near the end of his career Dominique Wilkins in 94-95 and still couldn't revive anything. For those 14 years, they only had 3 seasons where they won more than 36 games, all Pierce's years. Kind of like the Raptors they peaked early at 49 wins, then went downhill from there as quickly as they had gone uphill. It was because they managed to not only build up some young talent and high draft picks but swindle Minnesota and probably also Seattle that they acquired the core for their current team. Until this draft we had neither the young talent and we still don't have the high draft pick they traded for Allen, nor are there any players like KG and Allen available for the plucking, so we'll probably have to build up the hard way.

[geebee]

Being REALISTIC and realizing your team does not have the parts to turn your team into anything more than a perpetually mediocre team is not "let's be as bad as we possibly can". Deciding on a rebuild plan that will hopefully give you a higher ceiling than before is not "let's be as bad as we possibly can".

With all due respect, trading away Bargs but keeping Calderon doesn't sound much like "building for the future". If you're developing younger talent, why not keep Bargs and trade Calderon/Bosh for a PG with upside potential?

No. Tim's plan is to give away the young talent we have... keep the players with glaring downsides in their game, and wait for the lottery pick. You can try to spin it, but that's still tanking.

[Quixotic]

With all due respect, trading away Bargs but keeping Calderon doesn't sound much like "building for the future". If you're developing younger talent, why not keep Bargs and trade Calderon/Bosh for a PG with upside potential?

No. Tim's plan is to give away the young talent we have... keep the players with glaring downsides in their game, and wait for the lottery pick. You can try to spin it, but that's still tanking.

I don't think I ever mentioned keeping or trading Calderon, or keeping or trading Bargnani. The proposed lineup was by you, not me. The only pieces I definitely want to keep are Amir, DeRozan and Davis. BC will have to determine what other pieces still fit around those 3. If he thinks Bargnani and Davis fit together, then that's fine, or if he thinks the youngsters would benefit from having Calderon around, that's fine too. You also forget that young pieces can always be traded for other young pieces (e.g. Tim's Bargnani for Rubio idea), and that not every young piece is worth keeping simply because it's young. Look at OKC -- Jeff Green isn't part of their long term plans.

If you call keeping DeRozan, Davis and Amir giving away the young talent we have, then sure, I can't really argue with you.

[dn66]

I personally don't think keeping Hedo is even an option. Sure Colangelo said the other day that time has a way of healing wounds, but with Hedo publically demanding a trade there's nothing good that can come of this. He was a disruption and a huge disappointment for the most part last season, so you mix in a trade demand and nothing good can still come from this. If we're retooling/rebuilding then apart of that must include getting rid of Hedo. Fans will not forget nor forgive.

What the team needs should be the priority.
If they don't have a starting 3, I don't have any issue if they
try to patch things with Turk, until they get one.

[geebee]

I don't think I ever mentioned keeping or trading Calderon, or keeping or trading Bargnani.

Nope. Tim did, and you vigorously defended his approach, so don't tell me now that you don't recognize it.

The only pieces I definitely want to keep are Amir, DeRozan and Davis. BC will have to determine what other pieces still fit around those 3.

Or, if you're convinced that we can never be competitive as is, we can simply cut all the other players and forfeit the entire season. Then you'd have a clean slate for 2011-12.

If you call keeping DeRozan, Davis and Amir giving away the young talent we have, then sure, I can't really argue with you.

Not at all. I'm sure they'd be very competitive in 3-on-3 tournaments. However, it's not an NBA team.